Episode 6: False Independent Woman Syndrome - Why Asking for Help Is So Damn Hard And Why We Need To Do It Anyway
Why is asking for help so hard and what does it cost us when we don’t?
In this final episode of season 3 of the Full of Ourselves podcast, hosts Heidi Hinda Chadwick and Anna Campbell tackle one of the biggest hurdles for women in business: asking for help.
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Anna, a self-confessed “good girl rebel,” opens up about how hard it still feels to ask for support without guilt or fear of being a burden.
Heidi dives into the roots of this conditioning - the pressure to do it all, perfectly, and alone and names what so many of us feel but rarely admit: that our hyper-independence is often a mask for fear, pride, and past wounds.
Together, they unpack what they call False Independent Woman Syndrome, the burnout that follows, and the loneliness that solo entrepreneurs rarely talk about. You’ll hear powerful truths about the 'curse of the competent woman,' why the internet has made us both more capable and more isolated, and how our refusal to ask can actually block connection and community.
They share practical, playful strategies to build your 'asking muscle' including Heidi’s 100 Rejections game. And challenge the belief that you have to do it all to prove your worth. From calling out the shadow side of people-pleasing to reframing asking as a gift, this episode is a rallying cry to ask for the support we actually need to succeed.
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Connect with Anna Campbell
https://www.goodgirlrebellion.com/
Instagram @annaccampbell
Anna’s book Good Girl Rebellion: Build the Business, Break the Rules, Be Limitless.
https://www.goodgirlrebellion.com/ggr-book
Connect with Heidi Hinda Chadwick
https://www.heidihindachadwick.com/
Instagram @heidihinda
Thank you for listening. We hope you have enjoyed it. If you have, please do like and subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. This really helps us get the word out. And do tell everyone you know!
Also, we would LOVE to guest on podcasts and speak on stages all about women entrepreneurs. Get in touch! hello.fullofourselves@gmail.com
episode transcript
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:02.667)
Hello and welcome back to the Full of Ourselves podcast. I'm Heidi Hindert-Chadwick and as always I'm joined with the extraordinarily marvellous Anna Campbell. And today we're going to be talking about that one little four letter word that is enough to strike terror in the heart of...
many of us and those of you that are just listening to this on Spotify will not be able to see the fact that Anna's eyes have gone a little bit bigger and she's nodding as I say that, which we will get to shortly. No, this isn't a swear word. We're not going down that avenue here. Just leave that to me and the stuff that I do. We're talking about the word help and particularly how
we can ask for or don't ask for or get our knickers in such a twist around the simple, is it simple? Well, we're gonna talk about that, for help when we need it as a entrepreneur. And it's so interesting. can't quite remember, it probably, as always with us, this topic possibly came up in one of the coaching sessions for those of you that don't know.
Anna and I coach each other, which is bloody amazing because I think, well, I'm going to drop that, think, because we are such extraordinary coaches and we really support each other so, so much in our own paths, our own business journeys. But it is a topic and as we've been exploring ideas around this, the list has just got bigger and bigger and bigger. So you'll actually hear us at times probably say we're going to...
come back to this in another episode. And it's likely, we might say that a few more times in this than we have done before, because this little word has opened up so, so much. So the first thing I would like to ask you as the listener here is how is it for you to ask for help? Do you, what is your relationship to asking for help when you need it? And of course we're focused on business here, but as we're there with...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:22.237)
all of these things, this will also probably be playing out these kind of behaviours and habits and blueprints in all areas of your life actually. Do you find it easy to ask for help? Is it very natural for you? Or is it something that literally makes you be paralysed in fear, bring as if all sorts of things which we're gonna touch upon today about why you cannot or won't or shouldn't ask for help.
And we hope by the end of this podcast today, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening. We always deeply appreciate it. That maybe it's given you some other possibilities or it's softened the edges around something that might have been quite contracted or closed for you. So asking for help, I'm gonna go straight to you Anna because of...
that reaction that you had to me even saying about that and also what we've talked a little bit about before. What is, how do you feel about asking for help?
Anna Campbell (03:25.773)
Okay, so this is still a work in progress for me, you know, I, you know, I'm, I'm the, good girl rebel. Definitely very much identify with that. That's why my business is a good girl rebellion. And so that idea of the good girl is I can do it all myself. It's that hyper independent. I need to go it alone. I don't want to bother anyone.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:49.953)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (03:53.71)
I don't want to impose on anyone. I don't want to be a burden on anyone. And so it's taking that all on myself and the whole idea of asking for help, asking for support, being super clear about that and opening myself up for rejection is a kind of no, no, no, no, no. And this is definitely something that I'm moving through.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:57.598)
Ugh.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:18.803)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (04:23.945)
But I am not through and in some ways I was saying to Heidi as we were talking about this before it's like maybe you need to just Talk to me through talk me through this and like what do we need? Because if you're also listening to this and you're feeling are you like thinking yes. Yes. I'm the same. Yes. Yes. Like what do we do? How do we get through this? I think that's why it's such a great topic for us to talk about but under so much to talk about and
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:35.957)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (04:53.503)
I'm still a little bit wide-eyed and a bit wary about it, so honestly.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:58.977)
I love it. I love the honesty around that. And what you said about that part, I mean, I so know this one as well, of I know I can, I'm not going to ask for help because I, well, I ought to be able to do it all myself. Of course I am. Otherwise, if I don't, I can't do it myself. I'm a failure. I'm like, you know, I think that's the technical word for it. And I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing then.
Anna Campbell (05:16.587)
Yes.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (05:27.993)
And I think there's two aspects to this. One is the fact of who the hell told us, where did we learn that we have to do everything ourself? And I do think that is a very woman experience if we're gonna touch upon gender specifically. And again, we're aware that we do tend to be very binary in how we speak about gender when we talk about these things, because there is something about this sense of
a woman kind of martyring herself, taking everything on herself, looking after the child care and making sure the home is clean and doing all the domestic jobs and then making sure dinner is on the table and is everyone okay and how's the parents doing and the neighbour and the dog and you know, let's be completely selfish where in fact we're actually end up sacrificing ourself and you know, that's the recipe for...
Anna Campbell (06:20.811)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (06:23.521)
absolute disaster. So there's something I think ingrained in our DNA in a sense of that. We have to do everything ourself, be completely self-sufficient. But then there's another aspect to this which I call the false independent woman syndrome. And that is if I had more hands than two, I would be raising all of my hands right now because I'm raising those. That is completely how I've been for all of my life without even realising it. It's changed now in last few years.
But for so long, I have to do it all myself. I have to look after myself. I have to make sure my rent's paid, my bills are paid. I'm the one responsible. No one else is going to do anything for me. And it's a kind of protective device. It's a survival technique and it works. But often that is what leads for many of us to end up being burnt out or overwhelmed or collapsing or having breakdowns and so on. It's just not a sustainable way to be.
Anna Campbell (07:24.877)
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I don't know whether it's also kind of a generational thing. We've talked about before how, you know, we are one of the first generations of women who have been able to have our own money to buy our own properties if we, you know, if we're in that position. So, and there was this thing, I feel like we can have it all. There was a bit of that feel about it. And yet do we, and yet can we, and can we do it, can we do it well and can we hold all of that?
But it was about, we can be independent. We can be independent. And so, and maybe, you know, our own mothers and grandmothers didn't have that opportunity. And so we were kind of taking that on board. But I think there's, we can go too far with that hyper independence of I can do absolutely everything myself. And if some ways I think the internet is to blame a little bit again, because
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:14.794)
Bye.
Anna Campbell (08:22.441)
If I want to try and work out how to devise a marketing plan or build a website or, you know, I can actually do that, but do I want to? No, beware the curse of the competent woman. You know, it's that thing of like, just because I can do it, that doesn't mean I should. And it's, and it's around some of that stuff. I think it's, it's part of this idea of
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:26.976)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:37.181)
No.
Anna Campbell (08:48.117)
We are independent, we can be independent, we can do our own thing, we can make our own money, we have our own worth outside of a worth that comes from maybe having a partner or family or whatever else that might be. But in me, I'll talk personally, I feel like it's kind of gone too far. There's that good girl part of me that's like, right, well, what I need to be was the good girl at the back of the class who didn't disrupt anything and just got on with it and didn't ask any questions and just...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:07.147)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (09:18.061)
you know, didn't need any help and was just very self-sufficient and all of that kind of stuff. And that feeling of that part of me, I know is evolving and changing, but in some ways the art of having to ask, which we'll probably come into in a little bit, and the art of asking for help and also being able to hear no, I think is, it feels...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:27.969)
Mm.
Anna Campbell (09:47.679)
Icky. I'm not sure that's a good word, but it's the word that comes to mind.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:49.3)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's actually making me think about, well, two things here that once just popped into my head of, and certainly that was my experience before I asked for help or asked and part of that has been then being able to be involved in some extraordinary stuff, like the collaboration with you doing the podcast and other things.
If I think about it now in my absolute and utter like independent, false independent woman syndrome years, where I do everything myself, I actually was very lonely. it's, know, loneliness again is one of those things. Let's just normalise the fact that we all understand what loneliness is. If we're a solo premier, if you're a creative and artist I work with, with creatives, it's a solo practice.
You know, you often do your best work, have your best ideas in solitude. If you're just starting out in your business, you probably don't have a team yet. It's, you know, it can be lonely work and no one really talks about the loneliness aspect of that. And that kind of then, then there's a shame around feeling lonely. Then maybe that again, that adds into the reasons why I can't ask others for help and to support.
because, no, it's just because you're feeling like this and you're, you know, maybe then it's like, you're not worthy and all, you know, it can feed into all those kinds of beliefs as well. But that also ties into the other thing that I was just thinking about is, it's cause I didn't know, I
having a conversation with someone other day and they said this and it was like, yeah. It's like, it takes a village to raise a family, something like that, or to raise children. I don't have children myself, Anna doesn't have children myself. So it's not my own embodied experience, but.
It's true, there needs to be the community. It's not just a vacuum. There's so much gifts that come from that. There's so much support. There's so much resourcing. And if we look at our businesses as our babies, as our children, as our family, then again, it takes the village to support that. And the village is all the other people that are around, whether it's people we know, whether it's through networking, through its coaches, or people that have specific skills that we need, mentors or whatever. When we reach out and are open to that,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:11.253)
we have the support of a bigger village, which is what community actually is in the first place. Community means to come together with your gifts. That's what the word literally means. Not to come and stand in the middle and go, no. Mine, you're not coming in, I don't need you. No. So there's those aspects there. And I can say for myself, hand on heart, over the last few years of coming out of...
the false independence syndrome place and asking for help and being more curious about what else is out there, who else is out there, what am I not seeing and listening to and can reach towards often. That loneliness part is so different. It was a huge thing for me for most of my life, I have to be honest. So I do think that's a part of this as well of, and actually the other word that comes to me is stubbornness.
Are you not asking for help because you're just bloody stubborn?
Anna Campbell (13:10.689)
Yeah, yeah, and it made me think a little bit about something I heard. I think it was from Simon Sinek and it was around that actually we get connected to people by working together, by helping them. And he was talking about someone, I think, I may have this story wrong, but this is a good kind of analogy anyway, was someone who, you know, who was quite ill and just didn't want to reach out to friends.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (13:28.597)
I
Anna Campbell (13:39.886)
And when he heard about this later, he said, how dare you not give me that opportunity to be there for you. And I think that's quite an interesting part to it as well, isn't there, that we forget. I think from the Good Girl perspective, it's, am I going to be a burden? Is it an imposition? Is someone going to feel awkward about saying no? You know, it's all about me imposing something on someone. And yet,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (13:48.395)
Yes.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (13:59.99)
Mm. Mm.
Anna Campbell (14:08.013)
And everyone has the right to say no, of course. But I think it's forgetting that this is what helps build connection. This is what is important. And I also think it's much more of a way that women work in business. You know, I'm part of quite a lot of networking groups and an artist collective as well. And there's something around that give and take.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:25.909)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:35.284)
Hmm.
Anna Campbell (14:35.383)
You know, it's not necessarily that I'm just gonna ask you, Heidi, to do something and then, you know, I'm always gonna shut down from that. It's a give and a take. And as a good girl, I'm very much ready to go, yes, I can help, yes, you know, and that kind of thing. And so I feel like we need to remember, I think we all, but I particularly, this is reminding me of...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:44.715)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (14:58.699)
building those connections because as you say if you go there and you're this false independent woman and you get to the top and you do that thing it's very lonely there if there's been no one with you maybe you don't have a team that's fine but you know other people around who are cheering you on and who maybe you've given you a little bit of a hand up along the way they've got a vested interest in seeing your success and that's that's part of it too
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:07.391)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:24.693)
Yeah.
Yeah. You know what you're making me think of as well is, as you're saying that, I think part of the shadow of womanhood is, and it plays out everywhere, and media's a huge part of what's brought this in, is pitting women against each other so we become suspicious of each other, we become competitive. You know, just have to look at the titles of glossy magazines often or...
Anna Campbell (15:28.151)
So I think it's just another perspective.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:56.48)
you know, horrific. And I've certainly experienced that and that still can happen from time to time. I'll be jealous or, you know, there's a sense of that there's not enough to go around or so on. So I've got to like keep this kind of like quite secret as opposed to the fact of actually the opposite of that is cooperation and collaboration and co-creation. And, you know, I think...
I know for me, when I'm collaborating with yourself and a couple of other really great collaborators, I have the right collaborators, it's like we, it's like not even 10 times, it's like we thousand times the magic that each of us has to bring. It's like this extraordinary alchemy that happens when we're working with somebody else or coming up with ideas with somebody else and we forget that that's the case. So it expands rather than contracts.
but we're still walking around quite a lot sometimes and it could be worth asking yourself. If I'm being really honest, is the reason I don't want to ask out is do I feel like I'm in competition and that by asking out, I'm diffusing what I have to give that there won't be space for me. So this feels safer to kind of stay separate and just maybe peer out and a bit seething look at them or having a team meeting or a holiday somewhere and, you know, and kind of feeling all these weird feelings of like envy and.
but won't do anything about it. you know, it's good to kind of look at these places with kindness, because if you find that there is some element of truth, that's really huge. And you can ask yourself, well, how might I move them from competitiveness to collaborative instead? And then we celebrate each other. We're so good, aren't we, as women? Isn't that one of the most extraordinary things that we have our friendship circles? We encourage each other. We're enthusiastic of each other.
we celebrate each other's joys and wins. So actually not asking for help is robbing us of not only receiving that, but also being able to give that to other women as well. I think it's really important.
Anna Campbell (18:09.643)
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I think that's something that, you for me, particularly, it's a great question. And one we'll put in our little lovely download that you can get from the episode is around what is it, like investigating for yourself, what is it that stops you from asking? What is the thing that pulls you back? I kind of made a list of things that came up for me.
that I've said a couple of them, but I'll just repeat them. So I don't want to be a burden. I don't want to hear no. So I don't want to be rejected. I don't want to overstep. And I don't want to feel like I've put too much out there. I don't want to be in position. And what's interesting is that I think that's all around that perspective that I'm quite sure that what I'm asking for is just too much.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:00.833)
the old too much. The old too much button.
Anna Campbell (19:03.745)
Yeah, I'm being too much. I'm asking for too much. And anything, anything, and honestly, from the good girl perspective is too much. Any little, even little crumbs, I think can sometimes be too much. And I actually like that you mentioned collaboration because I think for me, one of the first little steps that I'm taking into this, and rather than embracing the rejection and things like that, which I'm not, I'm not there yet.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:07.113)
You want the world?
Anna Campbell (19:32.706)
But it is around collaboration because if I can see a win-win, if I can see somewhere where this can be a collaborative thing, then I'm much more likely to ask. That doesn't mean I don't think I should be or can be asking. I know that that's, I can ask for a favor, I can ask for help, I can ask.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:50.721)
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (19:59.458)
you know, for expertise, you know, I could ask all of those things. But I think one of the first steps, if you're like me and you're struggling with this, is can you think a little bit more laterally and creatively around what have you got to bring for this person? What could be that win-win? You know, and I think that's a really nice way to think about it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:20.289)
It is, but I'm also just going to play a little Devers advocate here because that also still feels like, so I'll give as well. I absolutely agree what you're saying, but the actual just asking for help without having to go and I'll do this back end, which I have to say, I do it as well. Sometimes I'll be like, maybe we can exchange it for that or I can do this for you or can I help you with that? And I do that a lot. have to be honest.
Anna Campbell (20:30.955)
Yeah, it is!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:47.627)
But it's also just being able to ask for help without going and I'm gonna, I owe you. You know, that might be the next step after that one. I'm, you know, there's a stand in that.
Anna Campbell (20:56.215)
Yeah.
I think, I think it is, I think you're right. Yeah. That is definitely the next step. And I'm not, my foot is like off the ground and not quite a step down.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (21:11.969)
You know, it's so funny because I feel like I come from maybe like an opposite way and I don't want to well I am going to say that I'm a manc I'm a manc union from Manchester and There's a bit of a cheekiness and I think we're quite good at the black I'm actually a really good blagger and I have this thing and I've kind of always had it if you don't ask you don't get and I'm quite cheeky like that
And I think it's only recently that I'm tuning into that more in a more, let's say, if I'm really honest here, less entitled way, I'm just gonna really own that, to actually a more mature adult way of going, I'm just gonna ask for this because you can say no when I'm, but why not ask for things? And that's been everything from, I don't know, a band I wanted to go and see a few years ago that was sold out that me and my sister had seen in New York.
and they were sold out in Manchester and we like, that's a shame. And I actually ended up just finding their Instagram and writing to and going, look, I'm just going to ask, you know, no worries if not, we saw you in New York, we're from Manchester, you were sold out, do you have a guest list or something? And actually, the response I got back from the main singer was so gorgeous. she put us on the guest list. It was all very cute and everything.
But I guess there's something about maybe it's easier to ask for the things we're not so bothered about, but when it's something that really matters, that we really care about, the stakes are higher. So I think there's levels, you know. So maybe this asking for help, if it's new, is start small, you know, start with something that you're not that bothered about, you know, kind of play with that. think...
For me, play is everything. It's like, how can we play with asking for help rather than making this huge, big, serious thing that's, we've got to change, especially if it's, it's, you know, it has all this, it brings up all this stuff. So playing with that, be cheeky, go to like, I don't know, go to the coffee shop and when you order your coffee, go, can I have enough to go with it just because? You know, or something, I don't know, I'm just being silly with this.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:28.833)
And this is also where the practicing the no. We're going to do a whole other episode because we realize the no, which is a big part of this, being able to be okay with the no, is so huge. There's so many pieces to it. So do look out for that. When it's, know, whenever we do that, some point in the future. So one of the things that I play with with this is, and I created this last, I think it was last summer, maybe the year before actually, was I did it as a little,
a programme thing, a little challenge, eight days. And it's the ridiculous ask and embracing a hundred rejections. And I have to say, I still work with this and I find it fantastic. So the ridiculous ask really is what it says on the tin. It is that ridiculous light of, if don't ask, you don't get, fuck it. Because we don't know.
We don't know when somebody is gonna just turn around to our ridiculous ask and just really, without any drama or emotion, be like, yeah, sure. Do you know what, as well, Anna, we have to be able to handle the yeses, it's not just the nos. There's another side of things as well. What if someone says yes, then what? It's like, oh, fuck, no, like, I'm in here, you know. But the ridiculous ask, when you make it into a game like that,
Anna Campbell (24:42.209)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:53.569)
It's like the whole world becomes this playground to go out in and explore. And then alongside that, the embracing 100 rejections. So I've made a really nice PDF that I designed in Canberra or something, and I labelled one to 100. And for me, it's about the literally rejections from submitting my writing pieces out. And I've been...
very discerning, I'm very discerning about who I want to submit to, what publications, what publishers, so it's not just willy-nilly to stuff. And the idea being I'm aiming to get 100 rejections. I think I've submitted up to right now of filming, maybe 36 pieces, and I've had all rejections apart from one. I've had one, yes. I've had two.
really close. I've put those as a different colour because I think really close is a good and one yes. Does it stop it hurting? No, of course it doesn't. Is it not disappointing? It's really disappointing.
But there's something about the game of this, of like, I'm trying to get the nose, like the reverse psychology aspect makes it feel less risky.
Anna Campbell (26:11.693)
Yeah, I think with that it's very much a kind of, well you've got to be in it to win it, don't you? Like you say, you've got to... If you don't ask, you don't get. And I just... get that and yeah, I'm... No. I'm not doing that. I'm like, no. It's just...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:26.783)
I'm hearing the light, hmm, you're not sure are you? Like, well go on, tell me more. Tell me more. What's the head shaking and the thing?
Anna Campbell (26:35.615)
It's just so excruciating, the whole idea of it. I just, I don't know. I think it is a bit...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:39.711)
What's okay, Tia? Tell me, what's excruciating?
Anna Campbell (26:43.891)
It is that, it is putting yourself out there and, you know, saying what you want. I think that's part of it too. It's saying what you want. Gosh, that's definitely a thing. And someone judging that, I guess, judging that and saying no.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:52.811)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:05.409)
So, but aren't you judging that first by not even giving someone a chance? Do you see what I mean?
Anna Campbell (27:08.393)
Ha ha ha!
Yes, okay, so this is something I had written down that I saw and I was like, when I first saw it, I was like, okay, I do this all of the time. And the quote was, don't say no to yourself. And basically, the idea is like, when I'm thinking about, you know, I really want x, y, z to happen, or I really want to, you know, I really want this person to help me or whatever it might be.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:24.289)
There you go.
Anna Campbell (27:35.776)
And then I'm just immediately I say, no, no, no, I can't ask. I can't ask. I can't do this. can't, I can't approach that. I can't put myself on the line like that. And the idea of this is don't say no to yourself. So it's, it's actually kind of arrogant of me to say, I'm going to make a decision on your behalf, Heidi. I'm not going to ask you. I'm going to go, no, no, no. I can't possibly ask about this. I'm trying to think of it in this way. It's difficult, but I'm trying to.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:56.545)
Mmmhmmm
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:02.079)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anna Campbell (28:03.421)
It's actually not respecting that person's ability to make a decision themselves. It's kind of like, it is a very controlling, and I'm well aware of this, very controlling aspect. And there's a guessing of like, I'm pretty sure they'll say no. So I won't bother them with it. It's an assumption.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:22.113)
There's an assumption. There's an assumption and we all know what assuming is, isn't it? What it does. Excellent. I started doing me.
Anna Campbell (28:28.617)
Yeah, I know, but it's exactly. But it's just, I found that one interesting. And I've been playing with the idea of the don't say no to yourself, because I know there'd be so many times I wouldn't even acknowledge to myself, I want to ask somebody something because I'm just not, it's not even in my...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:34.995)
Oooooh
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:45.322)
Love that.
Anna Campbell (28:54.037)
you know, it's not even there in my mind because I'm automatically going, well, I can't do that. I can't ask that. And I can't, you know, I've got to work it all out for myself. And I, you know, if I can't do it myself, then obviously this wasn't meant to be. Do you know what mean? It's like that kind of vibe of things.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:09.061)
That is huge, I've written that down. That's huge, because we just, we're already, we're just drowning our own joy already, aren't we? You know, we're just dumping it already, before it's even had a chance to be out, idea, or like, you know, the thing we believe in. And we always say, do we always say, but maybe we always say, maybe I always say it in my head.
Anna Campbell (29:21.293)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:34.22)
The number one thing is we have to be 100 % on board in what we're doing. We have to have 100 % belief because this is something we have said many times, walking the path of an entrepreneur, Jesus Christ, it is hard bloody work. It's not for the faint of heart. So if we're wibbly about it inside a little bit, or we can't bother others, or sorry for, you know what it is as well? It's that, maybe it's quite British, I don't know. Those of you that are listening from other places in the world, thank you, thank you again.
you know, you can let us know and this is a good point to remind you we love to hear from you we love to hear what you get from the episode any kind of revelations anything you don't agree with any questions please please reach out and and let us know your thoughts but there's such this almost this apology for existing in the UK apology for breathing you know someone bumps into you in the supermarket with a trolley we're the one that turns around and goes oh I'm dreadfully sorry you know
There is something about that taking up the space, having a voice, having an opinion. It's quite automatic. So I think there's possibly some of that very cultural thing going on inside as well around not bothering others or, you know, apologizing ahead of it, even coming out of our own mouths, having to do that kind of thing to begin with. I think that's an interesting one, that cultural.
Anna Campbell (31:00.769)
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, and the other one I'm thinking of as well is again around gender. There's this thing in the UK, particularly called the Old Boys Network. The Old Boys Network and that is around, basically it's all the boys that went to Eton. You know, the really posh boarding schools. But what's interesting about that is the Old Boys Network is because this is someone giving someone else a helping hand, an introduction. And
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:29.377)
Hmm, interesting.
Anna Campbell (31:30.51)
It's not about doing it yourself. It is about the fact that, I'm in this club, as it were. It's not a club, but it's like, I went to the same school as this person, this person, and this person, and now they're a top politician and they're top in this business and they're top in that. And I can go and do these introductions. I can go and ask for help. I could go and ask for funding for something. And I think that, and it is particularly a...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:41.482)
Network,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:48.629)
and
Anna Campbell (31:58.254)
in the UK, it's seen as a very gendered thing. It is called the Old Boys Network. And I feel like we need to find our own way of having that for ourselves. As women entrepreneurs and as women in business, is having that network and feeling like that's what it's about. It is about us being able to ask. And also when we have the opportunity to help, can go and help as well. So...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:25.003)
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (32:28.725)
I think that's an interesting one too because I think a lot of times we think about those people who are at the top of whatever we think about them at the top of politics or the top of the businesses or you know the top of those fields they have not got there on their own they have not and they can't and that's how it is and it's the same with us the smaller we keep ourselves and the smaller we hold ourselves and the less we do ask
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:40.181)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:44.051)
No, absolutely, absolutely not. No. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (32:58.509)
for that thing, the longer this journey is gonna take to building to where we want to get. And the more likely, unfortunately, we talk about the 8 % club, the more likely that people, we end up kind of losing ourselves, losing interest, losing our way a bit because we're just not getting that momentum that we need. And at the beginning, it was very difficult to get that momentum. And I'm talking myself into this now, but the more...
we can ask and get that support that we need, the more we can build that momentum. I was at a conference a couple of days ago and it was interesting and they were talking about, they called it the big ask, like what could I do? They were asking somebody who was like a lot higher up in terms of their following or whatever it might be. And they're like, how can we do this? How can we get asked that? And they talked about ways that they could do that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:53.408)
Hmm.
Anna Campbell (33:55.608)
But what was interesting is that one opportunity, they talked about it like a ladder, it kind of gets them up, like five extra rungs up the ladder, and then they get more opportunities because they have that, it just helps along the way. So it's remembering, again, this is talking to myself again here, but talking to those who are a similar position to me, of that space, is that all businesses are all about.
that interconnection. We all need customers and clients, you know, and we all need that goodwill as well. And I think this can be part of that too.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (34:33.033)
Yeah.
I love that. That is so beautiful. And it comes back to the receiving and the giving and they're not separate things. Like you said before, right towards the beginning, when we make assumptions and stop ourselves from receiving what someone else is giving, we block their flow of offering out as well. Like receiving and giving go hand in hand. It's like a cliche, but it's absolutely true. And I do think we have more propensity to over give. I think it's a very
Again, like I said before, it's very kind of feminine, know, woman, I suppose, trait. I also think it's just how we are as humans. Like I have this thing, I don't even know why it's become such a thing for me that if I'm around people, whether it's myself that does this or somebody else in the group, someone gives a compliment, you know, your hair looks nice or, you know, whatever, like your dress, immediately.
And you might be listening now and laugh at this as well. Immediately it's a, my knee's washing, you know, I got this, yeah, this old thing, I've had it for years, or, and I have, I don't even know why I started doing this, but I always go, stop, no, receive, take this in. I'm really kind of firm like that, and I do it to myself, and sometimes I think, you know, someone else has to catch me out on that and go, okay, thank you, swallow my own medicine here. But it's...
We can't even receive a fucking compliment about a cardigan we've got on. Then, you know, we've got some work to do to be able to receive really good help in supporting our business venture. So we can start there with the compliments and start with both receiving the compliments that come in and giving them. And I tell you something else as well about the receiving, just as a kind of energetic thing. It takes a bit of time to receive it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (36:26.569)
So sometimes when someone says, you know, job well done, we're like, thank you, or you look nice, thank you. We actually don't feel it, if we're honest. And sometimes it can be a moment to just...
It might seem like forever, but just give yourself a breath. Take a few breaths. Take a moment to let that land. You'll feel it when it lands. And what I used to do a few years ago when I was playing with the practice of receiving, learning, because when things are new for us, like asking for help, if we actually reframe it to, I'm learning how to ask for
Oh, immediately there's a relaxation in the body. It's like, oh, I'm learning, I'm going to get it wrong, I'm going to be clumsy and oh, it feels so nice. But I used to say for quite a while to the right people, I wouldn't just say necessarily to the shopkeeper or some rando or something, but the right people, if someone offered me something, compliment, advice, know, something physical, I would say, thank you, I find it difficult to receive.
Anna Campbell (37:10.605)
Yep.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (37:37.206)
I'm learning how to receive. And sometimes even just saying that, it would like drop in. And it was something about being just honest with where I was at, the honesty of that. Even asking for help. Maybe we can be honest around being upset to somebody. Okay, I feel really like, you know, to use your words, like icky about this, for all sorts of reasons. I feel really uncomfortable.
I'm learning how to ask for help. It's a new thing for me. May I ask you blah blah blah blah blah blah. And there's something because essentially what we're talking about with all of these feelings underneath is vulnerability. We don't like feeling the vulnerability. And it's asking for help, any kind of help. There's a vulnerability in that. And I believe the ownership of that is really beautiful because it makes us human.
It makes the other person actually want to lean in more because there's a recognition of that in ourselves as well. It's quite a beautiful quality. Not this faux social media vulnerability, but like the honest, true vulnerability.
Anna Campbell (38:48.205)
Yeah, that's so true. And I think then there's me that who's thinking like, well, when I ask someone, I'll be like, I'm really sure, I'm sure you're really, really busy and you don't even know who I am. I get all of that kind of stuff in first rather than just being having something, a clear ask for what it is that I am looking for. So I think again, that's kind of reminding me about like how we ask is also important.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:09.493)
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (39:16.601)
and that coming from that place of the clarity of what it is we want and how it will be helpful and try and ditch all of that stuff that's about kind of giving them an out. They can say no if they want to say no.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:17.174)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:30.816)
Do you know what? It's not even about ditching it. don't think exactly what you just said of what comes up first is all those like, oh, I'm going to be bird, I'm going be this. If we learn how to, so say for yourself, for instance, if you know that's what arises, rather than trying to like fix it or ditch it, you know, just forget all of that. Okay. It's a kind of, ah, part of you going, oh, I know this comes up when I'm about to do something vulnerable, when I'm about to ask out. Okay.
So what I'm actually feeling is vulnerability. Thank you, all these bits. Okay, I'm actually feeling vulnerable. Right, can I let myself just feel that and then go and ask. So in a way, it's a signal that you're about to step into something vulnerable. So we can thank that bit. We don't have to do anything with that. It will just dissolve because it's been recognized. This is kind of alchemy of how we work with those places. But I think what you just said about the clarity is really important because...
I think a big question to ask yourself is what do I need? What kind of help do I need? Literally what kind of practical help do I need? Because do we know what kind of help we actually need? Is it very specific or is it broader? Is it from one person, is it a team? Sometimes we don't even know. That's why we get ourselves all in a twist around this help thing.
Anna Campbell (40:52.717)
Yeah, yeah, that's so true. And I did want to kind of talk a little bit about the shadow side of the good girl personality. And I think why we worry about being a burden. And that I think is because we will say yes when we mean no. You know, we will, we're very empathetic. We think about the other person and we're like, you know, I can see this person really needs this thing. I don't have capacity to do this right now.
but I'm gonna say yes to this. And we can say yes with resentment. We can say yes and feel like it's a burden. And I think that's why we presume everyone does that. And I don't think everyone does do that. And I think that that means that we can feel like somebody else might do the same thing if they're not the same personality that they probably are, if they're not the same personality of us, but.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:26.529)
I'm
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:32.065)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (41:45.038)
I think that's why we worry. And actually, if we take that even back a bit further, this is something I'm going to be working on a bit more with my crew in the Good Girl Rebellion, is that we can actually be really hard to be in a relationship with because if we say yes when we mean no, and do the thing with resentment, that impacts.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:09.193)
Hmm... Hmm... yeah.
Anna Campbell (42:09.249)
that relationship. If we can say, we can kind of come back into this maybe when we start talking about like, how do we say no? I think, I think this is a really important one. But I think from this perspective of why do we imagine other people will say yes and see us as a burden and see us as an imposition? I think part of that is because we do that and we're there judging.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:31.265)
100 %
Anna Campbell (42:32.397)
And we're at that level, we're like, well, I'm, you know, I'm just much better than this person. I'm saying, yes, I'm doing the thing. You know, there's some kind of weird superiority that goes on. I'm just sort put it out there. And I'm just interested to hit, you know, if you're nodding along with me as you're listening to this, if you recognise that in yourself, because I think it's, everyone has different parts of their personality, you know, that have
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:41.537)
I'm a good girl.
Anna Campbell (43:00.641)
that are brilliant but then also have a shadow side. And I think this is one of ours. And I think this is the crux of why asking can be really difficult because we imagine everyone else is the same.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:11.989)
Wow, I love that. The word that comes to me is people pleasing.
Anna Campbell (43:15.916)
absolutely, yeah that's exactly it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:17.045)
you know, the people-pleasing part of it. Yeah. It's so... See, I... It's interesting, because I think part of why I don't have a problem asking for help is because where I am now, I feel like I'm really clear in the sense of, saying yes, that's your responsibility, you've said yes.
you know, and being discerning about who was saying yes to you and even feeling. If it feels sticky, if you feel a bit sticky or icky afterwards, it's probably likely that there's something not quite of integrity going on in the yes. And we can feel it in ourselves if we've said yes. We can feel it. doesn't, it feels, ugh, it doesn't feel nice. And the thing is, when people are clear about, and it doesn't mean saying no completely. Sometimes it can be,
someone ask us, rather than saying yes all the time when we don't want to, but we do want to help, we can go, it's a no at the moment, because I'm actually quite full, or I've got a lot of stuff on, but I'd love to come back to you at some point when my calendar's a bit clearer, or I have a bit more space, and see if you're still needing some help and support with this. know, and not going, is that okay, is that all right? Just stating clearly, our time.
is the most important resource that we have. It's the most valuable resource.
And this is really, I think this gets really clearer the more that we're building a business and the more we're responsible for more and we're holding more. We have to get stronger around how we're valuing our own time. And that includes time for us to do fuck all, know, to lie in a bath, to watch dating reality TV shows, to hang out with our kids, our dog, the clouds, whatever we want to hang out with. It's really, really important that we...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (45:15.903)
We invest that, so we're full. So we're not giving, you've mentioned this before, we're not pouring from an empty cup that we're actually full when we come in to give to somebody. And also, the saying no, and as we've said, we're gonna do a whole episode on this, without any justification, no is a complete sentence. And that is, as women, and I know that's something for myself, that is a hard one to kind of...
really kind of anchor in I think. But the bottom line is when someone's clear with their yeses and nos with us we trust them and when we're clear with our yeses and nos for what's available we're trustworthy and I guarantee the more that we're in that the more things will come to us and the more people will say yes to us because we're clear in our energy we're holding that ourselves so others will be able to hold that around us as well.
Anna Campbell (46:10.829)
Yeah, I think that is a really big important part of it. And I think because it can be difficult whenever we're about personality things and things that we're doing and things that perhaps would be very, very ingrained in us for whatever reason it might be, we have to kind of we have to consciously make a choice to do things differently.
and to make changes, have to keep consciously doing something that maybe goes against what we would normally do. And so I feel that that's such an important point to say of like, the benefit of that is that people will trust who we are and how we show up. Because if we say we're gonna do something, but then we just don't have time or we make ourselves ill or we do all of that kind of stuff.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:47.808)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:56.523)
you.
Anna Campbell (47:06.081)
That person is going to be like, why did you say yes if it's not right, if it's not right for you, if you can't do it right now? You know, it's putting a burden back on them. And that's, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:09.203)
Yeah... Yeah... Yeah...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:17.611)
Yeah, and it's messy. It creates a lot of messiness that you've got to use your time and energy to unpick. And who's got the time for that when you're building your own extraordinary business? I'll say one more thing as well, is, you know, and this loops right all the way back to the beginning of what we were talking about. The end of the day, asking someone to help you with something, because you're so clear around that you don't need to know everything and know how to do everything. So you're going to ask for help.
You're giving someone else the opportunity to do the thing that lights them up and to maybe be paid for that as well. And that is like, it's like a really obvious thing of like, my God, how amazing your eyes light up about spreadsheets. Great. Here's some money as well for you to create the spreadsheets and, you know, line your bank account with and everything, you know, it's like.
Anna Campbell (48:13.42)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (48:14.195)
No, that's insane because surely we want people to hire us for our skills. So someone's got to ask us for help, haven't they? As a coach. Someone's got to ask you for help as a coach, Anna. So, you know, just saying.
Anna Campbell (48:29.035)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Definitely, definitely agree with that. And I think, I think that that's, that's very important to put out there. It's, it's so it is important. I think it's a part of, of growth of our business to be able to, you know, I suppose it's also identifying and admitting that there's a gap in what I can do as well, isn't there? When I'm asking for something, I'm saying I
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (48:53.354)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (48:58.167)
cannot do this or I don't have this resource or whatever that might be. And again, there's a kind of a vulnerability and admitting that and in asking for that help and support. But generally people tend on the whole to feel really happy to be able to help. Or like you said, I don't, you know, like you said, they might say, well, I don't have capacity right now for that, but thank you for asking. know, there's ways.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (49:01.547)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (49:15.189)
Yeah, I love it when someone asks me.
Anna Campbell (49:27.231)
in which you even by asking, even if they can't do it, it still might be a bit of an ego boost for them. You know, there's there's so much there's so much going on here. And we do have our top tips for how to ask, which are going to come in our downloads. So do look out for that in the show notes, because we will have that there for you as like an extra resource. So especially if you're anything like me and you need all the help you can get on this. Get the help.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (49:56.897)
Thank you so much Anna and we hope you've enjoyed this episode again it feels like another one with lots of juicy bits to chew on so to speak and yeah let us know if you haven't done so and you're listening to this on whatever you're listening to this on, raters, likes,
Anna Campbell (49:57.014)
in the show notes. Freely available. Freely available. Brilliant.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:25.323)
comment, share, all the usual things. So actually, we're asking for help here to spread the word about the Full of Ourselves podcast, because we love it, we're really proud of it. We think it's really valuable as a resource. We know that from your comments and the messages that we get sent. And we would love it to expand and reach more people. So can you help us to do that in whatever way that might be?
Anna Campbell (50:27.809)
Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:54.421)
that would be truly appreciated. So we will see you next time.
Anna Campbell (50:57.802)
Absolutely.
Yeah, see you again for another episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast very soon.