Episode 2: Lingerie, Lipstick and Leadership: Why What You Wear Matters
What we wear isn't just fabric - it's strategy, it's story, it's armour and celebration all at once. In this episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast, we’re talking about how we as entrepreneurs use clothes, lipstick, jewellery, and even lingerie to feel powerful, visible, and ready to lead. Whether it’s a bold lip before a pitch, a statement necklace imbued with meaning, or changing out of pyjamas before sitting down to sell, how we dress matters. Because style isn’t superficial. It’s a tool. It’s a choice. And it tells the world (and ourselves): I’m here, I mean business, and I know exactly who I am.
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Here are the ways to listen to the podcast
You’ll hear:
Why getting dressed can shift your energy and clarify your role
How to cultivate a “work uniform” that reflects your values and vision
Real talk on photo shoots, Zoom filters, and showing up authentically online
Insights on personal branding, creative expression, and investing in pieces that truly fit you
Tips for working with stylists or simply trusting your own sense of what feels good
If you’ve ever felt the disconnect between how you dress and how you want to show up, this episode is a love letter to finding your own business-style sweet spot.
Listen now and explore how your clothes can be a tool, not just for looking the part, but for feeling fully yourself in your work.
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We hope you have enjoyed this episode and it’s given you food for thought. We have a free download that accompanies this episode. If you would like a copy, email hello.fullofourselves@gmail.com with the subject WEAR and we’ll email it to you.
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https://www.goodgirlrebellion.com/
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https://www.heidihindachadwick.com/
Instagram @heidihinda
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Also, we would LOVE to guest on podcasts and speak on stages all about women entrepreneurs. Get in touch! hello.fullofourselves@gmail.com
episode transcript
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:03.363)
Hello and welcome back to this episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast. Today, Anna and I are going to be talking about probably the most serious topic that we have come up with yet. And that is all about dressing or not dressing to mean business.
This is going to be a conversation. Very excited about this. I don't know what will come out. We've got some ideas and some points, but we wanted to talk about the power of, I suppose, what it means to be focused on or give attention to what we're wearing, you know? And particularly when you're an entrepreneur or you're a solopreneur there is a difference between going into an office and then you've got all your, you know, your fellow workers and you've got that environment and there might be, you know, a particular uniform. We'll touch upon that a bit more in this topic. But actually for most of us that are entrepreneurs, that's not the case. Our office might literally be our kitchen table. Or we might go to a co-working space or our favourite cafe or kind of, you know, mix it all up.
So where does dressing or what we're wearing come into it? Why is that or could that be important? Is it something that you give attention to or are you just showing up in your like, know, slippers with the holes in and your trackie bottoms day after day? And I certainly think like since the pandemic, especially when a lot more of us got online, there has been more of that tendency to go, I don't have to fucking bother, like even getting dressed until like later in the day. I know I got into that for quite a while actually, but does that have an impact on us? And what does that mean when we're saying, actually, I've got a very serious business that has particular value, it has a particular sense of visibility. So does what we wear matter when it comes to our business? This is our topic for today.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:26.22)
What do you think, Anna? Does it matter? Does it matter what we're wearing? Do you think it matters? Yeah.
Anna Campbell (02:33.81)
Let’s just go straight in there. I think it does make a difference to how we feel about ourselves and how, for me, let's, I'll say, instead of talking about everyone, I'll talk about myself. I know it makes a difference for how I'm feeling and how I'm communicating and all of that. Because dressing in a certain way is almost part of that ritual of getting ready, isn't it? And I think there have been times where I've, you know, I've plonked myself down and put zoom on and got on and it's been fine. And I'm just wearing whatever I'm wearing. Or you just change your top and you’re just like business on the top, relax and comfy on the bottom. Well.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:18.006)
I want you to go pleasure on the bottom then, but no.
Anna Campbell (03:25.806)
Relaxed and just whatever on the bottom. And also I noticed for me, Zoom particularly, we don't get away with it on Riverside actually, which is what we're using to record this on. Zoom has got this whole touch up my face thing and you can have it do filters for you and stuff like that. So it was even easier. You just plunk yourself down and you're like, ooh, okay, don't like, just kind of put the slider up to do more of that. And you don't have to worry about it. But I think, and I think that's fine, you know, if it's really just a casual meeting or something that you're doing, I don't think there's a problem with that. And I don't think there's a problem with that generally. I just think for me, what I've found is when I do feel good in what I'm wearing…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:58.676)
Makes me 20 years younger.
Anna Campbell (04:21.302)
When I do take time to choose what I'm wearing rather than just feel a slob about and things like that, it makes a difference. And I think as well, I have my desk, I'm in my living room right now. I have my desk in my living room. So it's also a part of having that ‘I'm going to work’ feeling, you know, and there's a separation between that and me relaxing later. Does that make sense to you as well?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:41.652)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:52.35)
Yeah, when you say it like that, it does. It doesn't mean I actually do this whatsoever. I think I like the idea of, like when I come to my desk and whether it's for a meeting or not, I mean, yeah, for a meeting, obviously, you know, I'll take a bit more time to notice my appearance and show up appropriately. But for a lot of time when we're getting on or I'm getting on with just, you know, the background work or the stuff that people don't know is part of being an entrepreneur, which probably takes up about like, pretty much 90 % of the time from what people see, getting the work done, the stuff, the substance, the marketing, all of these kind of things, I feel like I intend to a lot more than I do go, okay, I'm actually gonna get dressed up to sit at my desk. And actually I'm just thinking about something now and it's something I suppose in the way that I play with desire and pleasure in our creative work. That can be whether it's coming to write your book or whether it's coming to be the leader of your business and you're about to create some extraordinary offering, it’s this sense of we're in a relationship with our business. And I think when we're a solopreneur as well, there is a very intimate relationship and it can be fun to play with the sense of my business or my craft is my lover if I'm in this kind of relationship. How do I want to show up to my lover today? You know, what is that saying as to the value of this, of how I respect this relationship?
If I'm showing up in that skanky, stinky jumper that I've worn for like, you know, 14 days on the run, that's got a big stain on the front of it, simply because it's easy to put that on. There's something a little bit about, you know, it's about the ritual, the ritual of how we prepare ourselves for entering into any space. And I like what you said about the defining the fact of, especially if you were, I'm also in my living room right now, we're showing up for work and then when we're stepped away from that and we're you know with our partner or family or just hanging out or you know whatever we're doing because there's that kind of trope isn't there of you know you come home from the office and immediately take your bra off you know this kind of sense isn't it I've got okay I can relax now and like how do we make those kind of distinctions?
And I do think it obviously impacts psychologically, I think as well. If I'm putting out, and I'm playing with this a bit more, just very recently, if I'm putting out a luxury brand, let's say, or luxury business then how I'm showing up to that just in behind the scenes day is a part of that. I'm getting into the energy of that. You know, I'm putting on a costume because at the end of the day, uniforms are costumes, aren't they? You know, people walking around with their suits, you know, from wherever you buy your Marks and Spencer suits or whatever. And it's a costume to go to work in. You can see stuff in places and know that's something, maybe a pencil skirt, that particular kind of jacket or shirt, they're probably not the things you wear for fun. And I apologize for anybody here that's like, I wear that for fun, I love it. Actually, most of the time, that's, you know, it's kind of, I'm going to be a professional at work outfit, you know. So what is your own costume?
Anna Campbell (08:22.606)
Hmm. Have you? I was just gonna ask you, have you ever had a job where you had to have to wear a uniform or had a dress code?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:35.25)
Yeah, I mean, back in the day, I'm probably talking like, because I've been an entrepreneur for about 25 years now, but back in the day, I'll be thinking like, pretty much my 20s really, two jobs that come to mind. One is I worked as a waitress at Pizza Express. So we had an outfit there that you had to work with a little, you know, logo thing on and you had to wear black pants or skirts or whatever. And then also I used to be one of those promotional ladies at places like Boots. ‘Would you like to try so-and-so perfume?’ Which was very interesting considering I'm a bit of a rebel when it comes to things like perfumes and all this kind of stuff. But anyway, yeah, I did that in my early twenties and you had to wear smart, like I was just saying before, a particular kind of suit thing. But I'll tell you something though, but since then, no.
But then I remember years ago, I was playing with, so how long ago is this? I want to say about a decade ago, when maybe I was starting to take my business a lot more seriously than I ever did before. Like when I was first starting to really get into the businesses and stuff that I'm doing now. And I thought, I want to play with this character thing. And I actually went to this charity shop down the road and I found, and it was like literally a fiver, I think, five quid, for this red, it was gorgeous, like a, you would like it, a bold red suit. It was from Next, it's woollen, and a really nice, like, smart jacket, which I've still got the jacket, and a really kind of funky, yeah, pencil skirt, but it was a bit asymmetrical and had a little bit of a kind of scrunch kind of thing to it. And I was playing with dressing up, actually, like that for a bit, putting that on to go and sit at my own desk. A bit of a kind of end point to this story, I forgot about that, and then not that long ago I found it and I was like oh put the jacket on oh yeah okay nice could not even get the skirt over my thighs I know I was like off to the charity shop again you go just a bit of an aside there but I do it was a funny thing to remember and I was so like oh this is so exciting I'm going to take this home and dress up as a serious businesswoman and play in that because at the end of the day everybody's it's that thing isn't everybody's winging it?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (10:57.186)
And people that you see all dressed up like that, they're winging it as well and just, but wearing the outfit gives you that little bit more of a boost in confidence, possibly. Yeah, what about you? Yeah.
Anna Campbell (11:11.254)
Yeah, I think it can do. Certainly, I'm trying to think. I mean, the first kind of shop, not, yeah, actually, the first couple of shop jobs that I never worked in a restaurant or anything like that, but they were shops for me. And I was in a department store, but it was very much in the, ‘are you being served’ times? So there was the Navy, the Navy little skirt and the white blouse. And, you know, it was that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (11:36.211)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (11:39.04)
It was that style of thing that you had to wear. Then when I was a teacher, there was, I'm sure there must've been a dress code. I can't really remember the specifics of it, but I had a quite specific skirt and top, like a wardrobe for that. You know, and so it is quite interesting. I think what's quite nice about it, I'm not saying you have to have a uniform, but I think what's quite nice about having a uniform is that there's that separation a little bit from, like you said, the taking the bra off, the from being at work and then doing something else. And I think that's what we've lost a little bit of work from working from home. And so wearing something and having your own work uniform, as it were, I'm not saying I have one, but I get what you're saying, gives you another separation. Because I think sometimes that work life balance, that's not a balance.
It's like, it can help with that, I think.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:37.036)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:41.56)
And it doesn't have to be big as well. We were both agreeing on this. We both have thought of this. I don't know when we were thinking of ideas for what we would want to speak about. It could be a piece of jewellery. Like I've got this piece of jewellery on here, which is an old print set ‘R’ for revolution for my new business. I've got that. Got a hole drilled in it. Necklace on it. Bingo. There you go. And for me, this is, I will wear this now when I am, or certainly when I'm running kind of writing workshops and things, but when I remember to as well, when I'm actually creating stuff for the writing revolution, I will put this on. And that for me is my getting dressed up for work. It has that kind of token energy that's informing that. And then often I'll just take it off again after I've done that. And that's it. You know, it can be in my other outfits. So a piece of jewelry, which, you know, yeah, okay, I like to make things. I often do that as a representation for stuff that I'm playing with, whether it's YouTube videos, whatever. But even buying a nice piece of jewellery, like a nice ring or a bracelet or something that, for you, represents your business, I think can be a really powerful thing to do. Or how about, I mean, I'm curious to know if you have anything around jewellery that represents, because obviously you're a jeweller as well. So I mean, I'm talking to the pro here.
But it was just making me think also of shoulder pads. You know, like back in the eighties, the bigger power bitch you were, the bigger your shoulder pads were, isn't it? Yeah.
Anna Campbell (14:16.812)
Yeah, absolutely. So, jewellery for me, I have this ring. Maybe what we'll do is maybe we'll share some pictures of what we're talking about for this. But I have this ring, which you will probably not be able to see. Those of you who are watching on YouTube, you get the advantage of seeing what we're both wearing today and things. But I have...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:28.896)
Mmm, I've seen it.
Anna Campbell (14:39.406)
So you're right, for those of you who don't know, because I'm on these, I'm a Mani Gen, I'm a manifesting generator, I do lots and lots of different things. And so I've had a career working. I don't do really random stuff sometimes, but I've had a career working with jewellery and jewellers. I have my own jewellery school, I teach jewellery making and I love people when people come and make things that have meaning. So they stamp initials on and things like that, which is really lovely.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:47.17)
She really does.
Anna Campbell (15:07.15)
But this ring that I have right here was made by my lovely Jess Croft from Home Bed Jewellery and she has this, she does personalised jewellery and she had this amazing mantra collection that I adored. And so I said, could you make me the Good Girl Rebellion ring? And she's like, yes, of course I can. So I've been wearing this every day and for a while, I don't do this so much anymore to be honest, but I was doing it as part of my meditation in the morning. I put it on as a part of that kind of ritual idea of like, these are the people that I'm working for. This is the cause that I'm working for. And it was all kind of part of it. Now I just don't even take it off. And now I have my own Good Girl Rebellion range of jewelry. So you can all get it. I'll put the link to that in the show notes of mantra words and, you know, and the Good Girl Rebellion if it resonates with you. But I love the idea of wearing something. You can even wear something that has things stamped on the inside. You know, if you've got a message that you want, but it's for you. You know, it's an interesting idea. It's something that is for you, not necessarily for everyone else.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:09.336)
Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:17.858)
You know, you're making me think actually around, I mean, there probably is this stuff out there from what you're just saying. I love the idea of things on the inside that you don't necessarily want to show the world, but it's close to your skin. Even things like keep believing or you're doing amazing or yeah, I'm sure there probably is this stuff, isn't it, around your business that just to have that is good. You've reminded me as well, I've got my this ring, it is kind of an infinity, but it also represents eight. So actually I bought not this one. It was actually a smaller version of this. Just before I went to Asia last year, just before I launched 8 % Club, my membership, I got it from Accessorize. I really like their stuff and I wore it the whole time. And that felt very purposely I got it for that. And then, you know, note to self, don't wear it all the time, including in the sea and out again and, you know, all tarnished.
So when I got back, I was like, I'm going to buy a new one. You know, and I went to Accessorize and they didn't have my size. They had a smaller one, which I could have squished in and put on a different finger. I was like, Oh, okay. And then the same day I was with a friend of mine and we're walking through, I don't know why, Marks. We're not sponsored by Marks and Spencers. If you're listening, anyone from Marks and Spencers, we're happy to be sponsored by you representing women in business and business outfits. There you go. Maybe we need a sponsored, you know, place like that.
But I was with a friend and she wanted to look at something in Marks & Spencers. Those of you that are not in the UK, Marks & Spencers is like one of those stalls that's so British and everyone knows it, clothing and underwear and food, the best foods actually. And so as I was walking through, I looked at the jewellery and they had the same ring, this one, but it was bigger and chunkier. And I was like, oh my goodness, that's why I couldn't get my size in the smaller one. I had to upgrade this now. And I wear this pretty much every day and I love it. So it reminds me of The 8% Club! as well as I just really like it. So it's interesting, isn't it? I think for women as well, there's something about, well, not for all of us, obviously, but I love jewellery. I love this thing of putting nice things on. It makes me feel like a woman, I suppose, you know? And we are all about women in business and you don't have to have yourself adorned. We both love our lipsticks.
Anna Campbell (18:11.79)
Love it.
Anna Campbell (18:42.124)
Yeah, let's talk lipsticks. It's actually often at the beginning of a podcast, we're chatting away and we're like, what should we talk about? How should we talk about this? And then we're both like, just putting our lipstick on before we press record. That's like the last thing that we do. I was never actually a lipstick person, to be honest. Weirdly, I know, I know. It's my whole identity.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (18:43.968)
That's your lipstick, babe.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (18:57.25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:04.802)
You surprised me.
Anna Campbell (19:11.974)
Not quite but I went and found one I was like right I really and I wanted to go bold I was like right I want a red and we tried and she got a couple of them out and she tried this one on that I'm again YouTubers if you're with us you can see this and the first one she tried on I'm like that's it and she's like shall I try on another one I'm like no no but what's really interesting is I was trying to get some more of it and it looked like they'd stopped doing it and I panicked and went and bought six from different places! I've got so many and I know you're I think there are the things that say that it runs out and you're not meant to keep it I have I'm keeping it and this is I'm sure I could probably find by the time those have run out I will be over the fact that this has gone out of stock or they'll bring it back so you know whatever.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:48.418)
No way!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:08.182)
I love it. It's always, isn't that the way I find that happens so often, particularly with lipsticks actually, is that I find one, I love it. I love how it goes, all this kind of stuff. And then next thing I know they've discontinued it. I'm like, but what? And that happens to me a lot. I don't know. I'm sure it's nothing personal.
Anna Campbell (20:23.744)
Yeah, I think they want you to, they're trying to get you to just browse around and start looking at more things. You know, I kind of get it. It's a bit like when they move things around in the supermarket and you're like, why can't I find anything? It's like trying to get you to find new things.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:37.208)
It was the thing, wasn't there? They used to say makeup was a bit like putting on your war paint. Remember that? I don't think people say that anymore. But there is something about, I know like we both have that and exactly what Anna just said before we start recording would be like five minutes and off we go and we're both returning. We've got our, I haven't got my red on today. I've got a new color I'm trying out here. But there's something about when I put lipstick on it, it makes me feel like a boss bitch, you know, like it makes me feel like a badass. It makes me feel like, yeah, like connecting into that kind of power place actually. There's something just like immediate in that. It's very interesting to see kind of what happens. And you know, we just want to say here at this point that you were listening to this and going, I do not relate whatsoever. I'm not interested in trinkets and jewelry, I don't wear makeup. Absolutely fine. But actually it would be really interesting to know, is there something, you know, do you put on that special pair of knickers? You know, I've got Wonder Woman knickers that if I have like a big meeting or something that I really want, I will wear my Wonder Woman knickers that no one knows about. They're a bit faded now, they were from Topshop a long time ago. But it's like putting your like, you know, your big girl pants on kind of thing and going out into the world. That's my thing.
So if you all have something like that, let us know. Or if you’re going, oh my God, I've got a favorite shade of lipstick and I've bought loads like Anna has as well, you know, the kind of jewellery aspect, let us know, we'd love to know. Like, do you have something that you put on intentionally to get you into this kind of more, like, business mindset? And does it work? You know, what do you think? Or is this a load of nonsense that we're talking about today?
Anna Campbell (22:24.942)
I love that and I suppose another thing that people might use if they're not really makeup people or if it's not about clothing is scent. You know, is there a perfume that you like to wear? I don't know if you're a scent person or not a scent person so...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:45.049)
What's your scent of choice then? You're saying that, so I’m guessing that's important to you.
Anna Campbell (22:49.258)
My favourite perfume is a very citrusy one. It's a Vibina from L'Occitane. So it's a very citrusy smell. I've actually never really found one of the traditional perfumes that people often talk about. I never really found one that I was like, yes, that's what I want to make my whole personality. But citrus smells for me, I love it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:00.62)
Nice.
Anna Campbell (23:18.542)
But some people do though, some people are like, my goodness, they go in a cloud of... I can't even think, I'm not a perfume person so I can't even think of a name of one. I don't know, a cloud of perfume.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:25.004)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:29.112)
I've only got like Chanel. Let's go with Chanel or something. Again, we're not yet sponsored by Chanel, but Chanel, you know it makes sense. We will wear your scent.
Anna Campbell (23:40.078)
Do know what though, I'm thinking about all of these things and everyone you've mentioned so far I would never be sponsored by, so, okay.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:47.369)
Controversial! Okay, Chanel? No, can't twist your arm? Okay, we'll have discussions about this after the show maybe. I'm not a perfume person. Though I have to say Penhaglion, is that how you say it? They have the most beautiful, my God, I occasionally go into the store and...
Anna Campbell (23:54.764)
No.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:13.464)
They have very nice rose. I kind of like they’re rose, but I'm more oils. I like a dab of oil, essential oils, not hippy dippy, but like rose or, mainly that basically. I just find it's really beautiful. But no, they're kind of, I find it a bit poisonous to be perfectly honest with that. But another thing as well, I love the scent thing. Cause again, that's just another way, isn't it? Of just, okay, I'll just put a scent on and then I'm at my desk or I'm in a meeting.
Anna Campbell (24:18.722)
Okay.
Anna Campbell (24:25.902)
Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:43.384)
I mean, I touched upon this as in, you know, the Wonder Woman underwear, but lingerie, you know, there's something, isn't there? Don't all women, all women, I'm going to speak for women here, I'm aware of that, feel something when we've got amazing lingerie on that only we know about? That could even be ~ gasp ~ matching bra and knickers, you know? How often does that happen? Or some really nice stockings or something.
Anna Campbell (25:14.892)
I think that's so true and I think that's another thing of like, of things being hidden and being worn for yourself. You know, it's part of that feeling confident and that's something maybe that you've invested in because, you know, nice jewellery or nice lingerie might be something that costs a little bit more than what you normally would spend.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:35.318)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (25:35.82)
And so I think it's about that part of it as well. It's about valuing it and going, this day, or this thing that I'm about to do has value. And so therefore I'm gonna put my armor on as it were. Not that you won't have armor, but you know, it's that feeling of that. I think there's an interesting thing I saw about tattoos in that there are different types of tattoos. There are some that are about, it’s about the placement of them. So like if you have them on your arm here on your shoulder on your back or somewhere, it's about other people seeing them. So it's about saying something about yourself to others. But if you have it on your wrist or something like that, then it's a tattoo for yourself. It's like a reminder. I know someone who's got a date on their wrist and it's that way up so it's not going to make sense to anyone else. It's for themselves.
And I think it's the same, it can be the same for clothing and for jewellery and things like that. It's, are you wearing something like your big shoulder pads to say, look, here I am. Or are you wearing something that is about you and about how you feel about yourself and it's nothing to do with somebody else? Does that make sense?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:53.804)
Yeah, absolutely, I love that. It's also making me think about, you know, yeah, okay, you touch upon the shoulder pads thing. But we don't have to go back that far and it's still going on now anyway. This idea of what a business woman looks like, you know, the kind of the severity and that goes along with how you are as a business woman, which for so long was about being, you know, that's a bit more maybe aggressive or a bit more, you know, like a
man in that way and not emotional that doesn't come into making decisions. So, and obviously that's kind of changing and changing. So actually dressing more, maybe feminine, let's go with that, you know, feminine, maybe softer, you know, like we're saying, you know, maybe beautiful, beautiful lingerie that people won't see, having your hair or your makeup, wearing certain things that's not that traditional classical style. There's almost a sense, I mean, it is different now, absolutely, but there can still be this sense of, am I taken seriously if I'm looking like this? And we were having a conversation, weren't we, about, because it made me think of that amazing film. Some of you might never have heard of this, if you're, you know, of a younger generation than us, but it was a real pivotal, quite, you know, really extraordinary film, but very of its time. It was the late eighties, I want to say like 87 or 88, called Working Girl. And it had a fantastic cast and it had Sigourney Weaver, who was this, you know, very kind of man-like boss woman of her kind of empire. Very much so. She was very kind of rigid and had a hardness to her and quite scary actually.
And then you had Melanie Griffiths. I have to talk like this, Melanie Griffiths. This character, they all had the most fantastically big hair. I remember that. But she came along and she had a, oh my God, there's that quote, isn't it? She says to Harrison Ford, ‘I've got a head for business and a bod for pleasure.’ I remember that quote when she was talking to him. But she's really great at business. She comes up with this stuff. There's a whole thing, her ideas
stolen by Sigourney Weaver's character and she's like, uh-uh, these are mine. And there's a scene that I remember when she's going to meet somebody who's very, it might have been Harrison Ford, but it's part of her going, this is my idea, I'm putting this forward as a proposal, what do you think? And her friend's helping her and she's got on the most extraordinary underwear. And I thought that was a really powerful shot in that they're showing this woman who's very much about her sensuality in lots of ways. She owns that. And yet she is this extraordinary business woman who's not afraid to go into a boardroom with all these men of 70 years old, white men, kind of like, and go, this is actually the idea, this is the future. You need to invest in me.
Anna Campbell (30:05.71)
Yeah, definitely. And if we think about it, you know, going back, we've talked a little bit about this on the previous episodes around how, you know, it was, I think, 1975, when women could get a credit card and without a man's signature, they could get a mortgage without a man, they get a loan. But in the UK that is, I think it's 1974 in the US. But basically, that didn't mean that it was happening. Like, just because they could, doesn't mean that it was allowed.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (30:32.116)
Okay, sure.
Anna Campbell (30:33.716)
And you know, it was certainly not in the same way as it is now. And so when women were much more being taken, finally being taken seriously in the workplace and still this is a work in progress. I don't know how we can still be saying that now, but anyway, it was that feeling of like to be taken seriously, I needed to dress in those power suits. There was that kind of very much that, like you said, the big hair, the eighties, the shoulder pads, all of that. The power suits, you know, it was all part of it and I hope that there's a step back from that and you know, you may still want to wear your power suit. I would really want a pink suit actually. I need to find a pink suit. I don't know how. I call it a power suit but I want a pink one. Like this pink, this very bright pink that I'm wearing right now. Just put that out there into the universe.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:03.906)
Power suits, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:16.436)
I want a power suit.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:22.648)
Of course you do, obviously. Of course you do.
Anna Campbell (31:31.512)
Pink suit come my way! But, you know, I think it's something interesting about how things have kind of progressed and changed. And coming back to this idea of a lot of people, especially solopreneurs working from home, where maybe we feel so glad we don't have to constrict ourselves into that uniform that we used to have to wear, and maybe we're happy to wear our work tracksuit or whatever it might be, you know, maybe there's something around that too, of having that. I'm particularly forever known for wearing slippers. And even when I was filming, so I was filming a course with a professional film crew before, I was filming a jewellery making course and there's a reel of me like, cause I've got my slippers on underneath the desk. Yeah, I've got my slippers on now.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:07.64)
Haha
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:20.408)
I love it. I don't believe you. No, I've got bare feet actually today. I like that. There's something isn't there around all of this around about especially…
Anna Campbell (32:25.582)
You know, I'm full on, we're like, I'm gonna dress up for this. Do I have to live for them? They're not that nice. I can't. Oh, I can't have Beth be, I get too cold. I can't wear...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:47.234)
There is safety in a uniform. there's anonymity. Anonymity. Thank you. In a uniform. And it's a very interesting paradoxical thing that just because you're an entrepreneur, it doesn't mean you're like this extroverted, outgoing, ‘comfortable in the spotlight on you’ whatsoever. I'm pretty, you know, might not seem like, I’m pretty shy really. Visibility is such a big thing for any of us as entrepreneurs. It's an ongoing thing to work with and how much do we expose ourselves because ultimately we then become the brand, isn't it? It's like this whole thing of like, what is your brand and how we present ourselves, especially on social media and what we're wearing and looking at all the things that we're talking about now becomes how people see us as a particular brand.
And that is an interesting thing, isn't it? Like it might be you're going, well, actually, no, I'm not really visible and I don't tend to have pictures of me on stuff or it might be, and then we're both, I think you're probably more than me, I know in your stuff, which I love watching your things, you're more, there's a visible, literally the kind of face of, of your, of your brand. So there is an awareness then of, okay, what I look like, what I come across is giving information about the kind of person that I am that you as a client or your audience is either going to resonate with and go, yeah, they're like me, you know, or go, my God, I love what she's saying, but look at her cardigan, that's super cool. You know, there's these things, isn't it, that draws us in and conversely it could go the other way as well. Someone in something, maybe even if they're saying really interesting stuff, I might be really, I think we judge, I know I judge, we judge straight away, we all do this. It puts us off somebody and someone's amazing work because of how we're presenting. It's quite complex. Don't you think that way?
Anna Campbell (34:53.068)
I think it is. I think there's a kind of this identification of like, yes, they're like me. Or there's that side of like, I'm, you know, I admire that person. I would like to be like that person. You know, I think there's, there's a different, it depends on, on what your business is, I think, as to where you want to be in and position yourself, but what you wear and how you come across all of that is going to be really important when you are putting yourself out on socials or even just the way you speak on emails and things like that, which is not so much as part of what we're talking about today, but I think it's all part and parcel of it. And I wanted to just ask you a little bit because you recently had a really exciting photo shoot for your brand. And I think what was interesting about that was how, how it very much, how important that was, I think having, having some really lovely photos.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:37.256)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (35:51.362)
But also how you thought about what you would wear and the props you would have and all of that. So just talk a little bit more about that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (36:01.344)
Yeah, thank you. And again, we'll, I'll provide a picture, one of the pictures from this as well. We've got a few things that we're going to put as a little photo montage, I think, to accompany this episode. So it was, it's a very interesting thing because I was doing a bit of journaling, it was in January, and I was about to, you know, I was going to launch this Writing The Revolution, the latest thing, which is, you know, as it says. We haven't decided the order of these yet as we're filming it about the rebellion and the revolution. So you'll have heard a bit more about where that's come from. So for me, there is this sense of and the work that I do is very much about the kind of eroticism and creativity and how they empower each other and this impact throughout all of our life. So I was thinking, OK, I'd love some new photos done because I've had a few done before with different people.
I want them to kind of embody that and also the fact this is called writing and you know offering writing workshops and mentoring and so on, bring both in. So, literally, I'd finished writing this my journal thinking where shall, who shall I ask? I'm on this particular group on Whatsapp a collective group thing about kind of conscious sexuality in the north of England, more Manchester actually, much more local, lo and behold I open that up and there’s this wonderful guy Curtis Wignal is his name ~ I absolutely recommend him ~
who is a photographer and he'd literally just posted, I've got a cancellation this Friday, looking to do this, exactly what I said, erotic photos of people that are really embodied. And I was just like, oh my God, that's the fastest I've manifested. So, I arrived with loads of things, loads of props. I knew I was gonna take my typewriter. I had pens and papers. And it was the funniest thing, cause I put on this last minute, these like red, you'll see it in the photo, really nice kind of pattern tights things, just as a last minute thing, I had a red bra, just to go underneath, I had no intention that I was just going to be in my underwear. And then when we started, and he's a really lovely soul, really relaxed and comfortable, I felt very safe there. When we started and I was getting changed, to put something on from all the outfits I'd brought, he just went, I don't suppose you want to just take some photos as you are, that's great what you've got on. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I think actually some of the best shots were from this. So my favourite one is this one of, you'll see probably the one I'm sharing kind of on the floor, my back, knees up, I've got computer, typewriter on my knees and it's saucy, but it's not in that kind of like, you know, kind of way. It's just as embodied. I'm owning my body and playing with the kind of writer type. And I love it. And I want to, I've said to him, I want to do more stuff with him, other ideas.
And two things with this. One is the response back from being visible in that kind of imagery or branding aesthetic from either amazing, know, like love this and really spot on to, are you doing in your underwear? That's right, sex sells, which is a whole other, we could do a whole topic on the sacredness of, you know, selling. But the other side of it, and this is a point we touched upon earlier as well, was it didn't occur to me, and someone might have pointed this out from the images I showed them,
Anna Campbell (39:11.96)
We may well do.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:28.16)
And they said to me, none of these look like they're from the male gaze. And you know what? This was a man. Yeah, taking the photos and not in one moment did I have a feeling like that. I think because the way that his process was you just be there with what you're feeling. I'm feeling shy. Okay, follow shyness for a bit, you know, like a really embodied process. There was no sense of that, which is quite extraordinary. And that's why the photos have worked out. Because we were talking about this, isn't it?
I want you to say a bit more about the, you know, is it caring for this image and making ourselves look a certain way? Who are we doing it for? Is it just reinforcing or emphasizing the sense of male gaze? So I know for me, from my experience, that wasn't about that. I didn't have that experience. I didn't go into it for that. But I'm curious about your thoughts on that as well.
Anna Campbell (40:18.914)
Yeah, I think this is an interesting one and I see it a lot around people, I think we're both Gen X and I see it a lot kind of like this idea of, know, we're aging gracefully, disgracefully, whatever we want to age, you know, and we're owning that and we don't need to hide who we are. We don't, you know, there were so many messages and I think this is such a true thing that I saw someone else talking about of like, she was saying in the 80s and 90s, if you grew up in the 80s and 90s, she said, I couldn't remember ever hearing anything positive
about how a woman looked. It was always, you're too fat, you're too thin, you're too this, you're too, there was always a judgment around it and there was always, you're not enough of this and you're too much of that. And so I think with being brought up in that way, it's been really interesting to then think about like, well, who, what, if I'm wearing something that I love, who is that for? If I want to look my best. I think we can do that for ourselves and it's not about dressing for whoever we're attracted to and we want to attract back, not always. Sometimes it is because that's what we wanna do. But I think there's quite a movement around not wearing any makeup and not accentuating Pam Anderson.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:49.987)
Well, yeah, Pamela Anderson's on that at the moment, isn't she? It's extraordinary, you know, and she does look beautiful. And it's so unusual, isn't it? There is this thing of like, my God, a woman without makeup in the public eye.
Anna Campbell (41:56.886)
It is.
Anna Campbell (42:04.64)
And also somebody who was so much around how she looked, know, the Baywatch era and all of that stuff. It's quite a thing. It's quite a big deal. It can then be, it's almost again, it's like that either or, either you're going all in and you're really trying to dress up and you're doing the whole thing, or you're not doing anything and it's part of that. And I think the middle ground needs to be there too. This makes me feel comfortable, this makes me feel confident, this makes, you know, and this is about me, it's not about somebody else.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:40.976)
Yeah. Do you know what I was thinking before when you were saying about what you really want to wear? Do you know what? Ideally, this is what I would really like. I would love to be, I do love the whole like Patti Smith. You know, it is quite, I suppose, kind of tailored. You know, we're talking about the suits, that's right. When you said about power suits. I was thinking, what would mine be? I do like her. I like the idea of fluorescent pink, but actually I really like, and I've had this for a while; a properly tailored, I'm thinking French, tailored, beautiful shirt and then gorgeous high-waisted beautiful pants, maybe woolen pants or something. A gorgeous, like, cumberbund, very fitted and then they flare, but really beautifully made. I would like to wear French tailored, beautifully made clothing. So again, just saying.
Anna Campbell (43:35.104)
I love that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:38.368)
If anyone out there is a Parisian tailor who wants to sponsor us!
Anna Campbell (43:40.104)
Hahahaha. Yeah, it's interesting because I came on a few weeks ago, I was wearing this brand new denim dress that I've actually I think I've worn it on one of the previous episodes we've recorded and it was so funny because I I tried it on in the shop was that I've never tried on a denim dress before I was like no no no no no and I tried it on I was like my god this makes me look amazing. Like it just had the right shape for me, the right, you know, it just looked right for me. And I was just like, right, I've got to, I don't care how much this is, I've got to it. And I'm now in that era of actually, want, I want to start buying things that make me look amazing, that I feel really amazing in, that make me feel really confident and not any throwaway stuff and all of that kind of stuff. I want things that make me feel that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:33.236)
Absolutely.
Anna Campbell (44:41.78)
And maybe those things might be a bit more expensive, you know, because they're all well made and they're well tailored and all of that stuff. And that's fine. You know, right now I'm wearing this neon, I'm going to stand up for those YouTubers again, neon pink cardigan and branded t-shirt, Good Girl Rebellion t-shirt. But this pink cardigan my mum knitted for me. I love that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (45:00.138)
I love that cardigan. Yeah, the good girl rebellion.
Anna Campbell (45:11.862)
I chose the colour. I was like, yes. My dad was quite sad when it left the house. He's like, I've been really, I've really enjoyed looking at that colour. He's like, maybe he needs one as well. Maybe, maybe. But it's just this colour makes me feel good. And in fact, another thing that I did was I was having a few years ago, this is now, but I was also having a photo shoot for…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (45:20.834)
Maybe he needs one as well. Maybe he needs a Christmas jumper in that color.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (45:31.927)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (45:40.78)
…my new website and I went on to the photographer's website and she had a stylist that she recommended and I thought, yeah, that would be brilliant. You know, just to work with somebody, because a lot of times I'll go into a shop and I have absolutely zero idea, I get completely overwhelmed very quickly and I walk out again. I'm like, what should I try? What works for me? And so actually working with a stylist who explained which colours I look good in, like this one.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (45:50.68)
Mmm. Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:07.928)
I can't believe that you didn't like just have that anyway, it's so obvious. But yeah, yeah, yeah, style is good.
Anna Campbell (46:12.558)
No, no, I was, I was definitely wearing lots of blacks and grays and, and definitely things that definitely did not do not work for me. Navies maybe. And I now wear lots of bright colours and I now know what suits me like shapes of things. So I can quite quickly hone in on things in shops and I now enjoy shopping a bit. I don't love it because I'm not a shopper, but a bit more. I enjoy it because I can go, Ooh, that's my colour. Would that look okay on me? And that kind of thing. So that was.
And now when I see older pictures or older reels or things of me I'm like gosh I can really tell a difference in terms of what works really well for me so permission to get a stylist everyone if you need one. Please do.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:46.85)
Hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:57.112)
Well, this is it. I think, you know, I think, well, over to you really, listeners, you know, like, we'd love to know, like, your particular items or what your ideal kind of work, kind of aesthetic would look like, your brand. And as I know, it's just saying, it's like, if you've got no idea, then what a great, what a great curious thing to play with. You know, you've never even thought about it, but you're thinking, oh, okay, because essentially, there's always that what we say here, you know, we want to enjoy what we're doing. We want to enjoy running our business. And part of dressing up for me is the enjoyment of. Absolutely. It feels playful. And that will have an impact on how I feel about going into work. You know, whether it's drafting a boring email or doing a spreadsheet or something or other, it all actually makes a difference. So yeah, hiring a stylist or maybe going out even with a good friend that's got a great eye and going, I want some outfits to go with my, this is my kind of brand. Can we do a kind of shopping thing together or do it with a couple of you? It could be a really fun experience and just trying things. Think improvising, you might find a whole new kind of character of yourself that you can embody as the leader of your business. But remember these are characters, these are identities. Like we said, right at the beginning, at the end of the work, I know we say ‘day’ with quotation marks, those of you that can't see because as a freelancer that doesn't, we're not quite doing the nine to five, but we want to be able to put that identity down and go, okay, now I am just me or I'm, you know, I'm the friend or I'm the mother or the lover or the parent or the just, you know, just me basically. So I think a lot of this is about playing with the identity of who are we as the leader of our business and what does that look like?
And if we think, maybe you've outgrown this or not giving it much thought or yeah I want to play with this then this is your this episode has been your permission slip to do exactly that and we would love love love to know you could even send us photos you know find us on IG send us photos of your outfit or your lippy or whatever we would love love love to see that.
Anna Campbell (49:18.568)
Absolutely! Well thank you so much for joining us on full of ourselves podcast series three. I can't believe we're at series three! If you've missed any of the series one and two go back, there's lots of juicy conversations to listen to and we will see you again for a new episode very shortly. Bye.