Episode 3: Navigating the Messy Middle In Your Business: When The Honeymoon Ends and Commitment Begins
You’ve launched the thing. The spark was there, the vision was clear, the energy was high and now? You’re in it: the messy middle. That awkward, uncertain, sometimes soul-sucking stretch between starting strong and seeing results. Sound familiar?
In this honest and encouraging episode, hosts Anna Campbell and Heidi Hinda Chadwick dive deep into what it really feels like to be stuck in the middle of a project, a launch, or a business journey. The part where self-doubt sneaks in, momentum dips, and everything shiny and new suddenly looks better than what you’re working on.
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Together, they explore:
Why the messy middle is normal and nothing to be ashamed of
How to spot whether you're bored, burnt out, or just overwhelmed
Ways to reconnect with your original “why” and reignite your drive
The power of small steps, rest, and letting go of perfection
How to avoid the trap of judgement and honour your personal rhythm
From managing energy and outsourcing strategically, to reframing success and finding joy in the process, this conversation is a lifeline for any woman entrepreneur navigating the not-so-glamorous but essential middle of the journey.
Listen now and remember: just because it feels messy doesn’t mean you’re off track.
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We hope you have enjoyed this episode and it’s given you food for thought. We have a free download that accompanies this episode. If you would like a copy, email hello.fullofourselves@gmail.com with the subject MESSY and we’ll email it to you.
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Instagram @heidihinda
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Anna Campbell (00:03.576)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast. We're into season three, which is so exciting. So, if you've missed any, go back, have a little listen. But today we're really excited, as always, to chat together. Hi, Heidi. And we're gonna be talking about something, as always, we talk about things that have come up for us.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:21.607)
Hi darling.
Anna Campbell (00:30.87)
And this one was one of those things that we were both like, yes, this has come up for us. This has come up for our clients. Let's talk about it. And that is:’ how do we navigate the messy middle?’ How do we, when we start a project, we're like, yes, I'm so excited. This is such a great idea. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. And that's brilliant. We have all of that newness energy, but there comes a point when we're somewhere in the middle where we're like, we’re regretting our life choices. We're like, what is going on here? What are we doing? We start second guessing ourselves. We start struggling with our motivation. Maybe a new project looks much more lovely and shiny. And we're kind of like, maybe I'll just do that instead. So, but how do we not do that? How do we stay? How do we keep moving where we can be in that little quagmire of the messy middle.
So yeah, Heidi, go on, tell us.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (01:35.241)
What I was going to say, I'm going to be writing notes on this episode. I think I need as much support as possible or tools to allow me to stay with that as well because boy oh boy, do I know that one as well! I would say the very first thing that's coming to my mind actually when this happens, because I know it can be a real like, you know, you can have that feeling of maybe you're just not looking forward to going into the office that day or opening your laptop or scheduling your work for the next, you know, month, quarter, year or whatever it might be. There's that can be a real feeling of well, whatever that kind of feeling is for you.
I think one of the things that's really good to do is to just take a moment just already and go look at what I've achieved so far. I think it's something in our go, go, go forward, forward, always productive culture that we live in, that there's almost that, like there's no pausing. There's no moments just to kind of pause and rest. We have done an episode on rest and how important that is.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:49.521)
And we can forget how far we've come. Like if you started your business six months ago, a year ago, five years ago, you know, this whole middle bit, I mean, what does that even mean? We can be in the middle bit. That could be actually where we're living most of the time in our business. If we're still growing and evolving and expanding and there isn't this sense of an expiration date, maybe when we die, that could be the expiration date, or we sell our shares to the highest bidder at some point or other, but we're probably not quite at that point yet.
But to pause to go ‘look at what I've achieved in this time since I began!’. And really to take a moment to celebrate that and see how far one's come. That can begin to give a little bit of a boost of confidence and a little bit of that inspiration to keep going and to motivate oneself.
The thing about the middle, the messy middle bit, and I love the fact that it's got the word messy in front of it because this is the thing, isn't it? Suddenly things are real. Shit's real. We're not just dabbling around with this exciting new idea, just having a go. Let's see what happens. Ooh, you know, all this following this. It's all a bit la la la la la. Suddenly it is, okay, I'm doing this.
I’ve done enough so far that I've invested time into this. I've invested my attention. I've invested money in learning or training or branding or whatever it might be. So we're already along the path. We can't see the starting line anymore.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:36.757)
There's a sense of, and this I think is part of what can overwhelm a lot of us and make us feel as if we're frozen in our tracks, this sense of, my God, I'm actually really on this path now. And that can cause maybe a whole existential crisis in a way. What am I doing here? How did I get here? What happens now? I'm tired. I want to lie down on that mossy patch. That looks nice. I'm going to have a cup of tea and nap and watch all of Netflix in one go.
So I think recognising you might be in that messy middle bit is really important and go, okay, pause, take a moment, celebrate where you've been and know that this is absolutely normal. You're in the real work bit now.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (05:21.545)
And that doesn't sound sexy, does it?
Anna Campbell (05:21.982)
That's so true. No, it's not, but it is where things happen. And I think that's the key to it. Like if we're dabbling, like you said, in this, this and this, and we're not really getting into the depth of anything, then the business really can't grow and we can't grow. And I think it's in this part. Maybe we'll do an episode on when do we stop a project, when, when, how do we know when to stop and how do we know when to keep going?
I think that's another, it's, yeah, it's a difficult one as well because I think we can end up second guessing ourselves and in some ways that's why it's so much easier to work with someone else because it's, we clock in, we clock out, we just need to do the work and whatever and it can, we don't necessarily have to make those hard decisions if it's not our business. But when it is our business, we are needing to make those decisions about which direction we are going in and what we are doing? And I think for me, sometimes that can lead to that overwhelmed feeling. And I think one of the things to think about when we are in the messy middle is to actually go back to what's the root of the issue here? Like where are we stuck? What is keeping us stuck? So is it boredom? Are we kind of bored? Like we're doing the thing and we need to keep doing the thing and we're like, but actually we’re bored here. Is it fear? Is there some, is that, is that old story, are there old stories? Are there things keeping us stuck? Or is it overwhelm or something else? You know, I think those, some of those are kind of key. A lot of the things that come in are one of those three things, I think at this stage. And I know we were talking about overwhelm particularly before we pressed record.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (07:07.039)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (07:13.198)
And that messy middle overwhelm that we can get. What do we do when we are feeling that overwhelm? I think you've said a little bit around it, but what else do you think?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (07:22.325)
Well, I think before going into that, I think, how do we know that we've got ourselves stuck in the messy middle? I think that's that, you know, before we even get to looking at the root, like what are the, what are the signs that that's happening? And I know for myself, that can be a sense of procrastination is happening on tasks that I, that maybe before I was really excited to do and suddenly I'm not so much anymore. They're just not interesting to me.
The saboteur comes in, I think, quite a lot and starts to mess things up all over the place and just whisper things in our ear. I think a lot of the doubts come in. These are all connected to what you mentioned about boredom and fear and overwhelm, how we get to those places. They don't just happen. Something has happened inside.
So perhaps something is whispering in our ear, our evil little gremlin going,’you can't do this. Who do you think you are?’ You can't be, things like, you can't be successful. You can't be successful. Who do you think you are? No one's been successful in your family before, or maybe in your kind of, you know, your group that you hang out with. Who are you to do that? Or who are you to be seen looking like this? Visibility can be a big part of stepping into the middle bit as well. They often go hand in hand. A lot of what keeps us small and then therefore stuck and then I think then we hit those places of feeling bored or the fears come up because we just we can't move our energy is not moving at all and you said something earlier which I loved when we were chatting about it. It's actually about how do we keep moving forwards knowing that we're moving forwards and we know at times that can be big sweeping movements, and stuff could be happening quite fast.
Perhaps at the beginning it is because it's all new, you're still setting the foundation stones in lots of ways. But when we get to this point, we might still be looking for those big sweeping places when there's just only just little movements as needed. And I'd like to come back to that because you spoke about some really interesting stuff around this before. But to recognise we're in that place and as to how that shows itself for us, I think one of the biggest things is we believe it's not working. ‘I'm not there yet’ ~ wherever that is, whatever ‘there yet’ is.
The comparison can come in at this point. I know I've had that so much. ‘Why are they suddenly doing really?’ Well, why does that happen? This happens to me a lot. I get jealous a hell of a lot. So when this happens, this is really, like, it makes me feel really rubbish and doubt and want to just rip everything up.
So those things can be really interesting to look for. Are we comparing ourselves to someone else's growth journey, their own unique path? This is mine. Are we expecting to be somewhere at this point? When, as you say, we're still building the depth that takes work.
And also, I think this middle part, interestingly, when I think about it now, is the time when we really, not just about staying with the work and finding ways to do that, but it's looking at if fear and boredom and the saboteurs playing out or getting overwhelmed and so on. And people don't realize this, I don't think, Anna. It's about having to do the inner work as well.
It's not just one or the, it's not just the outside strategists. And that's a whole other thing as well around our strategy might not be working for us anymore. It works so far. Now we need something else. Coming back to the capacity place, I think a lot of these things is, we've hit our capacity for how much we can hold, how much success, how much money, how much visibility, how many clients and so on. And we don't necessarily realize that. And we suddenly decide without realizing it, and this is the big thing, I think, with this, is it's not working. I'm no good. I'm going to drop it and look for something else. I think that's the biggest thing that we do.
How many projects have you started? I know I've got millions. I've got to a certain point and decided without really looking into that, this isn't working. I'm bored, everyone blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna drop it. Ooh, there's a shiny new thing. Let's go, it's gonna be different this time.
Anna Campbell (11:55.555)
Yeah, goodness, yes, I know that one too. And I think that can be a difficult one. I think when I've had jobs and I've been working on projects and got stuck, it's not been quite the same thing because I might have a deadline from my boss or I've got something that needs doing and there's something external around that. And I think sometimes I know I find this and I know The Good Girl Rebels, my personality people that I talk to and I've written quite a lot about in the book ~ yay the book, it's coming soon ~ and that is that there is a difference between working for someone else and working for ourselves. And I think sometimes we need to acknowledge and understand that we need different skills for that self-management.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:28.425)
Good luck.
Anna Campbell (12:49.73)
And it's back to that working on ourselves piece that you were talking about in that sometimes, you know, we're working really hard and we're doing all the things and it feels a bit like the hamster wheel, but actually maybe we haven't grown those parts of ourselves yet. They're growing. Maybe it's because we're in the growing pains. Perhaps that's what it is. But we need to think about a different way of managing ourselves, about having our own accountability.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (13:10.109)
I love that.
Anna Campbell (13:19.362)
Which I think for me, is a big thing. My book is a case in point. I've had notes on it for years and years and years and things that I wanted to do. And yet the thing that got me moving, the thing that got me going was having a publisher say, you need to give us this manuscript by this date. That's what made me do the work. That's what got me working till one in the morning and getting the work done was having that external deadline. And sometimes I think we need to be clever about ourselves. We need to know ourselves enough to know how to manage ourselves. Can we give ourselves those little rewards? Can we find some external accountability? Can we find a coach? We're both here, we're completely willing and able to help you with that as well. Because I think sometimes the way we've tried to do things is not working and we need to find, it's not that the project itself isn't working, but maybe we need to find a new way to look at it, a new way to access how to get that done. Does that make sense?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:30.077)
Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's so much in what you've just said. It's an interesting one with accountability because we've talked about this before. I'm exactly the same. I need that. So for me working with a coach or coaches working in, I've got a couple of writing groups now in the week that I go to. So I know I'm to get a period of writing done as well as some conversations that are really helpful.
Networking, that one's still a bit of an eek for me. I know you're great at things like that, where again, you're meeting not just you're meeting people that maybe could be supportive in some way, but having those conversations with like minded people, but certain friends that are entrepreneurs as well. And we have lots of conversations around this, including the one of no one realizes how fucking insane it is being an entrepreneur. No one gets it, if you're not in this ring, it is hard work at times. A lot of the time it is hard work. And we don't give ourselves enough credit for having, choosing this path over the perhaps easier path of working for somebody else and being in that framework. And like you say, having to do the work because there's external deadlines that way and you know where you are and you know what you're getting paid and holidays and all that kind of thing. No.
We've chosen, this is, really, actually I feel like I can give myself a pep talk, because I'm going to keep going here with this. We've chosen this path because it means something to us. There is something about what we're doing, what we're offering, what our service is, what our product is, what our work is on whatever level, whether you're a healer, whether you own a restaurant, whether you're doing massage, whatever it is. You believe in…
Anna Campbell (16:01.014)
Yes, keep going, pep talkers.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:24.957)
…what it is that you have to offer and the difference it makes to people. And not only that, you enjoy it. You enjoy doing the work. Okay. That is without a doubt. You would not have started on this path if that wasn't the case. When we get to this bit, the work bit and we get all those wobbles and we get all that we hit that capacity or we need new accountability structures around us, all the things that you're kind of mentioning as well. We can forget, we're a bit weary. We can forget. So going back to yeah, why we started this is really important. Go back to your original why. I always start with that. That is the very first thing I work with the clients, even if they don't get it straight away, even if they're still wondering what their original why was really all the way like a year into working doesn't mean that they're not still taking action and getting results and so on but it's a really good thing to hold what is the reason why is this matter to me, but alongside that is zooming out even more into the bigger context of this vision why is this a piece of this vision of your life what is this a part of this is a life so can have freedom, that I can travel or live anywhere in the world. I've always fancied living by the sea somewhere in a little cottage. I'm just going with this in my head. And this is one way to do this. You know, whatever your reason is, it reminds you. It almost takes away that being, ironically, even though that matters, takes away that mattering so much to get that right or done, because it's a piece of something bigger in your life.
That's why you're choosing it. And that can be really helpful, zooming out into the context of what you're doing. It could also be you need to just check, has it changed? Have you changed? We change all the time. So maybe it needs tweaking a little. Or maybe you suddenly realize that, and this isn't dropping it, that you need to actually really, maybe you need to turn 90 degrees somewhere or even, you know, a different angle. It's not just a small tweak and go, I thought it was about this, it's actually about this. I'm having that right now in the work that I've done over the years, I'm getting quite hot now as I'm getting passionate about this. The work that I'm doing now has always been about creativity and kind of eros and I've always had my particular way of working with that. It's quite maverick I suppose, it's quite provocative. And then it's really coming clear and it is a lot clearer for me over the last month or so.
I'm really stepping into this is about pleasure and creativity. It's about desires. It's about working with kink as a philosophy into your life. And this is very different. This is so clear right now. And it's really exciting and it covers everything. So that's a different pivot away from just focusing on this particular thing. This is, you know, something else I'm stepping into believing, but I wouldn't have gotten here if I hadn't started where I'd started from. This is just enriching and bringing pieces together even more so than I was originally aware of. So these are all important.
But there's one thing I wanted to do as well. We touched upon this when we first started talking about this episode. And I really like this. It’s new relationship energy. Because this is such a huge thing. If any of you are not aware of this NRE it's been banded about for
probably the last 10 years really, in certain circles and maybe kind of relationship circles, conscious kind of arenas, that kind of thing. And it refers to exactly what it says. When you're in a new relationship with somebody, you get all those butterfly feelings, you're excited, you've got all these chemicals going on, you can't wait to be with that person, it's the best thing ever, you just feel joyous, you're in that, just that bubble of like, it's hormones in the body. And that's actually happening biologically in order for you to see if there is a way that you two are actually meant to be together to create that bond, the emotional bond and everything else. It's a, you know, it's nature's way of going, here you go, come together and, you know, procreate or whatever. But this is also the same thing that happens in our business, isn't it? We fall in love with our business idea.
Anna Campbell (20:57.622)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:58.387)
It's so exciting, we're getting all those chemicals going on. And then just like new relationship energy with a person that doesn't last. You know, it's known as the honeymoon period, we have that in our business. And then suddenly the honeymoon period is over, we see the flaws, we see the warts and all the things that were like, that's only a bit annoying. I might have doubts come in the board and all the things that you say, then it becomes the choice. If you think about it, is there enough here? Do I love what is here in order to continue to choose, it's a choice, continue to choose this person, this business, going forwards, knowing this is different now, this is a different level to teach. And that's when all that stuff shows up in us, all the inner stuff. Wow, okay, I need to look at this in myself, or I'm noticing I want to push this away, or I'm noticing I'm anxious around this and can bring in all attachment theory and everything. So it's just an interesting way of looking at it. Your NRE will have disappeared when you get to this middle bit.
Anna Campbell (21:58.255)
I think that's important. I think what's interesting is around, is that recommitting, isn't it? It's almost like recommitting to this business, to this project. And for me, there's that balance of what you were just talking about, of that kind of permission to evolve. Because I think you couldn't have been where you are right now in your business without those steps in between.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:06.675)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:21.317)
Ooh, what a thought.
Anna Campbell (22:28.814)
You what I mean? You needed those steps and those people that you've worked with in between and you've found out what people really get from you. And it's been part of that journey. And so our businesses will evolve.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:42.581)
It's called the compound. It's called the compound effect. And this is actually really thank you for bringing that. I don't know why I'm just interrupting you there, but I just, the compound effect's really important because it is. We can't be, thank you. just, yeah, we can't be where we are if we hadn't done that or been that kind of person or taken that particular choice or not taken that particular choice and so on. I think that, yeah, this is such a great point.
Anna Campbell (22:48.141)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Campbell (23:10.894)
Yeah, think, I think it's that permission to evolve. I think for me, sometimes what it is is, I mean, I had this thing with my app as well. Like, you know, I did a lot of work on it and, and, I, the content that I created was amazing for it. And maybe the container for it wasn't quite right, but I needed to go through that to be here where I am right now, to be on the podcast and doing all the things that I'm doing. So I don't, I don't wish I hadn't done that.
Sometimes I think it's a bit like staying in a relationship too long, isn't it? Where you're like, oh, you know, once you've made that decision of just like, no, I'm coming out of that, the blink has come off and you're like, why did I stay? But then equally, you can be in a relationship and it can also evolve and it can go, you know, it can work for a long time. You know, my husband and I have been together for 17 years this year. And, you know, it has evolved all of that. I mean, we're not relationship experts and I'm not saying I am one. But we're not talking about relationships, but I think what we're talking about is that evolution? It’s that growing together and it's almost like we have to grow with our business and expand with the business. Yes, absolutely
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:11.845)
And it will change all the time. It will die. I remember someone saying this to someone, a retreat place I used to go to, and it always stayed with me. And there's a woman who I think she'd been with, she'd met her husband when she was a teenager and she was at the time, maybe about 50, I think, or just coming up to 50, whatever. So a long, long time they've been together. And she said something which blew my mind. She said that they've, that their relationship has died so many times, that there's been so many deaths of the relationship and then it's been reborn into something else. And I hear this, I've not been in a long, long term relationship like that. But I'm sure maybe you recognize that and certainly from friends that I've spoken to about this. So our business is going to do the same thing as well. And there's something here about risk, I think, isn't it? Like what you're saying about the app. And I remember, you know, I was working with you and while you were doing that and here, you know, worked so hard on that and put so much into it and so excited. And it was amazing. And then it became, like you say, the kind of the compost in a way for something else that maybe wouldn't have come from you if you hadn't kind of done that before. And I think there's something about this middle bit, why it's messy as well is this is when we start to take the risks around things that have a higher, well, a risk factor actually, in that we could, yeah, invest in creating an app, for instance, and maybe that doesn't work for us, but actually it takes us into something else. Or we invest in a business partner around something or a higher elemental training, and maybe that doesn't quite work out as well. You hear all sorts of stories around this kind of thing. What are we gonna do with that, especially at that high level risk?
We get when it comes back to the capacity of being able to support ourselves, but also knowing that this is part of it. When you hear, I love listening to people's stories, the business stories, because they're never like, ‘I started this, it did so well, and then it got even better, and here I am now.’ It's never, there's all sorts of like shit that hits the fan, stuff that didn't happen, disappointments, betrayals, like really edgy moments of, oh my God, we're going to have to scrap everything. Can it be saved? There's something coming through.
It's a roller coaster having a business. And if you want to keep that excitement, I think there is a level of maybe asking ourselves. ‘What kind of risk maybe do I need to take with my business at the moment? What kind of risk could bring back that excitement?’ Not in a dangerous kind of way, but what might that need if I'm feeling that thing? Because a lot of this is about dopamine actually. I've been really like this, now it's kind of changed my life. I see dopamine as our kind of kink system in our body, because it's about our pleasure and pain.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:37.235)
So starting something new is pleasurable, pleasurable. We're getting a fix, we're getting the buzz, we're getting the high, and after a while, it's not working for us anymore. It's too much like the kind of addict kind of thing.
And when we get to that particular point with our business, it's not like we can move away. We then have to press into, so there's two things to this, that we have to press into the pain lever, which means sitting down to do the things we might not necessarily want to do, or that feels a bit, you know, that will grow something in us, grow resilience, grow the business. But there's also something around, well, how can I, you mentioned about reward, how can I give myself little dopamine fixes? You know, what, what?
Anna Campbell (28:19.715)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:20.671)
Do I say to myself, coming back to accountability, do I say to myself, once I finish this particular, or the copy for this project, or this new website thing, or can I take myself away for a weekend? Or do I have a day at the spa? And that's my deadline to have that done by then. It comes back to us of how can we bring that in a little bit more? And yeah, risk and reward.
Anna Campbell (28:49.942)
Yeah, definitely. I think having those little micro deadlines, for me, what happens is mostly it's overwhelm. When I get stuck, for me, overwhelm tends to be the big thing. Again, the Good Girl rebels, we tend to be really big picture thinkers. We're very good at empathy. We think about all of the different permutations of everything that could possibly ever happen. And it's like, and it gets too much. And then I'm like lying on the sofa with a book and I'm distracting myself. I love reading and that's fine, but...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:54.802)
Micro deadlines, love it.
Anna Campbell (29:18.932)
It's when it's become that distraction rather than my rest and my way of getting my energy back. And one thing I found that works really well, and if it's helpful for you, I don't know if it works really well, actually. I'm going to say it feels like I'm dragging myself a lot of times to try and get back because inertia feels like the natural state. But what sometimes I have to do, what I have to do is like, what is the smallest…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:23.7)
Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:32.197)
Hahaha!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:37.918)
Okay.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:42.259)
It's so seductive!
Anna Campbell (29:47.503)
…possible thing I can make myself do? So there was this one thing I needed to do to put in my manuscript and it was like you know when you've done your homework and you've done some months on it and it's like your big thing and you know and you're like yeah, I've done it and all of that and then you get it back and there's notes and you go, it's good stuff and it's gonna make it better I'm not complaining about it, but it's like trying to get myself, having given it in and having like felt that relief of it. It's coming back to it. And so I was like, right, what is the smallest thing? Well, actually, I just need to go into the acknowledgments, I just need to kind of sort out a change in the name of somebody. And, you know, and I thought, right, I'll just go in and do that. And that I could make myself get off the sofa to do, just do that. But then, of course, once I'd done that, I'd almost tricked myself to just get started. It's almost like, what is the smallest little thing you can do to get yourself started? And of course, as soon as I've done that, I'm like, well, I may as well just do this. I may as well just go through and do that.
Another thing that works really well for me actually is like, right, I need to do this. So what I'm gonna do is put an album on. It's always Ludovico Inaudi for me, because I love my classical music. And I'm like, right, I'm gonna put this album on and I'm gonna work just for this album and then I'm gonna stop. Because it's like a moment in time. I guess people can do that with a timer, say I'll work for 15 minutes, I'll work for an hour, I'll work for... But for me, putting an album on, it's like, that's like a really natural timing thing. I don't know, it just works for me. And I'll just do it for this amount of time and then I can take a break and, you know, and have a walk or whatever little tiny reward I can give myself. But it's those little ways of just getting myself moving through the overwhelm because when I see the whole thing I just want to put the covers over my head just like, nope, nope, that's not happening.
But everything happens in that, like Glennon Doyle talks about, like do the next right thing, do the next right thing. And when I do that, you can do a lot. You can get to the end of the project, you know, rather than trying to look at it as some massive thing. That's what gets me. I don't know if that's you as well.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:46.7)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:12.053)
Oh, 100%. You're reminding me of, I don't know if you ever read this book, Sark has a book about micro movements. I can't remember what it's called now. I'm going to pull it off my shelf. And it's brilliant. She gives that example of like you want to knit a sweater. Maybe your first micro movement is finding a pattern. That's it. Maybe a second one or another micro movement is just going into a wool shop and just looking around and then leaving. Like there doesn't have to be these huge things.
Anna Campbell (32:19.416)
Mmm. Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:40.597)
One of the things for me that's very helpful with this place when it feels like there's so much, because that's, I think that's the thing, isn't it? It feels like there's so much that it's almost like it's not making a dent whatsoever. So why bother? That can be a thing for me. This is so huge. It's like trying to climb Mount Everest that my little walk up for a few hours every day is not actually making a difference. So what is the point? Why bother? I can't see the end. I'm never going to get there and all of this kind of thing. And funny enough, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine just yesterday in the park. And she's an entrepreneur as well. We're having a right good moan about certain stuff and then inspiring each other as well. All the usual entrepreneur conversations. Great to have an entrepreneur friend. Get an entrepreneur friend. Seriously, it doesn't have to, even if your mentors and coaches are fantastic, because they are there for you and you alone. But having friends that are also entrepreneurs is absolutely vital, I think, because they get it in a way that other people don't get it.
Anna Campbell (33:46.935)
Yeah, agree.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:47.445)
But I would say we were having this conversation around how, however much I will start my week going, I'm to have this done, that done, that's what I'm focusing on. I don't know what it is about time. And maybe it's about how I made it as well. I can get to the end of the week. Like it's, recording this on a Friday, Friday lunchtime. And I don't know what happens to the week, but I never seem to feel like I've done as much as I thought I was going to do.
And then I get all this hopefulness again. And then I start the next week going, this is the one, this is the week I'm going to get. And it's the same thing. I don't know when that part of me is going to realize that's probably just always going to be the case. And yet, and I have this a lot, I'll be out somewhere, I'll be at a party, I'll be around friends or things in the community or just bump into somebody. And firstly, it's wonderful when you start being in that middle bit, people are seeing you, recognizing you, and what you're doing. And that is also something really beautiful to remember as well. Those comments you might be getting either online or in person from people that really enjoy what you do. And I often get like this recently, ‘oh, you're so prolific. You know, you're really stepped up your visibility. You're really putting yourself out there.’ I’m thinking, oh, oh, oh, and there's me going, I have not done enough this week. This ‘not enough’ place.
Anna Campbell (35:15.032)
My God, that's big.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:15.221)
You can work 25 hours a day as an entrepreneur and it won't be enough and that's hard. But one of the things that is helpful for me that if I remember to and I forget so this is a reminder again because there's always a million things, like you say, there's this, and that can be for me the overwhelm, is to go, okay, three things, three things this week. And they can be micro, or two of them can be micro and one can be, you know, what are the three things? And if I do that, and I really have to feel into that because sometimes I've been aware of, and I was talking to my, so I have a membership called the 8 % club, and it's because, apparently only 8% of people stay with their businesses, when you hit that kind of middle place, you know, after that initial buzz, 8 %! And that was radical for me. So in the 8% club, you are committed. You're going through all this stuff and boy oh boy do people kind of bring that in and so on and move through it and there's all sorts of things here. But just saying this is, I'm going to do this this week, this, this, and this, it's not enough.
It's really feeling into what is the most important thing? What are the things that either have to be done? And they can be the exciting things that are like, oh my God, I'm really looking forward to getting into this. And it could also be very much the one that you said keeps things moving forward. It's working on a foundation level. It's probably good to have a mixture of both. Otherwise you're probably gonna be like, ugh, at the end of the week. And there's something about that that I know then I am moving forward every week.
I've said, I've done enough because I've done what I've said I'm gonna do. That helps me when I get into the, ‘I haven't done enough, I'm not doing enough.’ But I have to be honest, I'm not religious with that. And then it really, gets like in that real like, my God, I've got a thousand million things to do in like 24 minutes and yeah.
Anna Campbell (37:18.446)
I think for me, I hear all of this, I'm like, I'm sure everyone listening is like, like hearing the little angel choir going, But I think for me, there was this idea that there was one day I would be my ideal self. I'd be that person who was squeezing every little thing out of this moment and I would be decisive and I would be just doing things and I would be working 12 hours a day and it would be just joyous and I would love it and I would just and I would just think as like well if it's not that then then it's not working. Do you know what I mean? It's like there's this kind of dichotomy of like well if it's not that then then I'm losing I'm not it's not working. No not at all and but now I'm realising that I am my ideal self and…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (38:05.471)
Yeah, not black and white thinking in the slightest.
Anna Campbell (38:17.078)
…what I need to do is, I quite like to think of it as, what is my one thing today? So it's a bit like what you're talking about, the three things in the week, because I think for you, the way you plan yourself and your balance is a little bit different, but what's that one thing you can do in your work day, even if it's a small thing, what is that one thing? Because I think if we, I've talked about the tyranny of the to-do list, I'm not a fan, but if we have a massive long to-do list of stuff to do, even if we've taken loads of things off, you know, it never is never going to end. They're always going to be adding more things to it. And we never get that feeling of accomplishment. So if we can do our three things in the week or if we can get our one thing done every day, or if I can do the next right thing, then I'm winning, you know, and that I think is a really important thing.
And another thing I heard of, which I think is really interesting, is because as a business person, especially when we first start out, it's usually just us on our own. We don't necessarily have support there for us. And we need to do all of the things, you know, we need to do, we need to write the copy and we need to go, you know, provide the service and we need to do that. Whatever it is our business does, we've got to do all of that stuff. And I saw someone saying, I was like, oh yeah, this is true. And that is, there's certain parts of the business that if you were applying for a job and the job said that that's what you were going to be doing most of…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:20.309)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (39:43.715)
So maybe it's email, maybe it's social media, I don't know, whatever it is that you don't really like doing, you wouldn't apply for that job. And yet we have this job because this is our job. So I think, and that doesn't mean to say don't do those things, but I think what we want to get into that position of, like, right, I do those things right now, but as soon as I can, I'm outsourcing that. I'm going to get a VA. I'm going to get somebody who has the expertise in doing that thing so I can focus on those things that are uniquely mine to do in the business. And I think sometimes that's where the overwhelm and the getting bogged down comes in because it's like, but I want to be out doing this stuff, the stuff that is the business for me, you know, maybe for me, it's like talking on stages or, you know, writing the book or doing the coaching, you know, those parts and those bits that I maybe don't enjoy as much. It's kind of like, I feel like I get bogged down by.
And at some point I'll be able to be like, right, I'm at that tipping point where now I'm going to invest in someone else to do that. I'm going to outsource that so that I can spend my time doing the things that I uniquely do for the business.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (40:59.253)
Do you know what? There's a couple of things in what you've just said there. First of all, if anyone out there is listening to this and going, you two are amazing. We love it. We want you to come and speak on our stage. Seriously, it lights us both up doing that. Or as guests on your podcast or anything, we're just going to put that out there. This is part of the middle bit as well, is, you know, kind of taking the risks, asking for what you want and so on.
Anna Campbell (41:14.84)
We're doing that, yep.
Yeah. Yep, definitely.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:29.609)
The other part that I wanted to say around this, it's a very woman thing as well, to go, I'll do everything. And we're talking about this bit where we're growing. There are more responsibilities, it matters more, there's more on the line. And it's a very interesting thing around, okay, I'm gonna do all these bits, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that, and do every single thing. And yeah, part of that is we might not be financially able to, at the moment, do that. But is that the case?
Anna Campbell (41:37.645)
Yes.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:59.667)
Because there are, there are all sorts of ways that you can outsource certain things, especially if it's taking a lot of our energy that’s available. And we did do in season two, we've got a great episode around how do you manage your energy that you might want to go and listen to after this one, because it's bloody brilliant, just like this one is. There is something really empowering and liberating about going, I can't stand doing this aspect of my business. I'm not interested in, you know, whatever it might be. So I'm going to get someone else to do it, whose eyes light up around that, who loves that stuff and they're good at it. And I know we've spoken about this before. It also means other people get work. If we're supporting other women, if you're a women-centric business, then you can support in giving business to other women. That is a win-win, building that network, kind of that sense of expanding community.
Anna Campbell (42:30.306)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:57.589)
I'm sure if you're asked around, there'll be people that can recommend and that could be at all different price points, I'm sure as well. We kind of don't even think about that. Maybe there is a price point, if that is something that's limiting you right now, that will work for me. Maybe it's somebody that will just hire for one day a month or a few hours a month, but actually they can get that done and that's really great. This whole thing of we have to do it all ourselves can really kick us in the butt when we get to a certain point because it is not possible at all.
Anna Campbell (43:26.796)
Yeah, I think I just want to say this, one of my friends, one of my friends said to me, my friend Bridget, who's another fellow coach, she said, beware the curse of the competent woman, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. And I think that that's it. I think that I completely just wanted to kind of pull into that because I think that's such, I'm kind of highlighting that point you just made because it is so important because we can, we can like, yeah, yeah, I can do this, I can do that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:27.379)
The other thing I just.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:38.815)
That's it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:48.426)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (43:54.799)
When we come to this part of our business when we're in that middle bit, we need to start making those decisions about just because we can do something doesn't mean that we are the best person to do to do that thing and employing the person, somebody who's much better at it than you know, let's do that. And also the other thing we could do is barter a little bit, you know. Maybe there's something you can do to support that person who can help you and support you. So I think…
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:07.957)
100%.
Anna Campbell (44:22.328)
…there are creative ways around it and I just wanted to pull that in as well.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:24.052)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you for that. Being creative around it is really, really important because the creativity we've again touched upon before around growth mindset, Carol Dweck's work is that's where we grow. That's what helps the supporters. You've come up with a problem, you're stuck around something. Again, take yourself for a walk and go, okay, I wonder what our creative way is like, write it down, be completely bonkers in your list of really, really strange, ridiculous things of ways that you can approach this particular challenge that's going on. You might be surprised what comes up. Talk to people in your network. Ask out for that support, particularly again at this stage. And that goes back again to the doing it all ourselves, asking for support from others can be a real like, I don't want to do that. I have a video on my YouTube channel about the false independent woman syndrome, which interestingly has been the most popular video I've ever done by about like 500% or something as far as views goes. So there's definitely a need for that. But I wanted to say though, something you touched upon before around how you work or how I work. I think when, this feels very woman-centric as well using that term for some reason today.
And so vital is that each and every single one of us, our way of working, and I'm obviously talking about us as a solopreneur here, is going to be as individual to us as our fingerprints are. So yes, there'll be strategies. Yes, there's tips. Like, well, even, you know, the things that we're touching on, lots of different possibilities from what we've been speaking about in this episode. Great. It's great to have all this stuff. Try stuff. See what works, see what doesn't work.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:15.135)
You know, we're not saying this is the absolute key. We're still figuring it out ourselves. And that's what makes us hopefully come across to you as really authentic because we're not saying we're the experts. We're just bringing what we've tried and things that we've worked with with clients as well. But I think once, for me, realising this is really liberating because it makes me go, okay, if I am completely unique in how I work, what does that mean?
Wow, I can feel it now as I'm speaking. A, it means I'm not doing it wrong. B, it takes the pressure off of this expectation around I should be doing this a certain way. And it allows me to honour my super slow pace, which I'm honouring more and more and more and more. Does that mean stuff doesn't get done? No. Like I said before, people think I'm really prolific with stuff. I'm like, wow, I nap a lot and distract myself loads and waste about three hours in the morning when I get up drinking coffee and just dreaming before I even get to any work and then work into late into the night sometimes till two in the morning you know part of my brain going no this is not right and I'm going well it works for me I've got a good work-life balance okay maybe why don't I lean into that more if that's working which is just occurring to me now actually as I'm speaking about that let me lean into that more so what is that for yourself you know you're listening to this…
Anna Campbell (47:32.76)
Yeah.
I love it, I love it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:41.865)
…can you trust in it? Because ultimately, and this I think is the ultimate thing when we get to this point, how much do you trust in and believe in what you're doing? You're coming all the way back to what's at the beginning. That's going to carry you through. Even when you're lying on the floor in an absolute heap, crying your eyes out because you're exhausted and you can't take it anymore, you don't know how to open that email and deal with that and you just want it all to disappear.
That's okay, have that moment. But come back to that. I have seen clients of mine, and it's been happening recently, that have been right at that edge of nearly giving up. Really challenged, really overwhelmed, really like doubting all the decisions. And they've stayed with, they've pulled out all the resources, they've stayed with, they've been supported here by others in membership, myself.
And to see them come out through that into like almost divine guidance if you want, know, synchronicities happening, things being, as she said to me, easy all of a sudden, opportunities, easy. Just like that, things are happening. It makes me think of that meme of the guy that's digging, you know, under the ground and he's about to give up and turn back. And then you can just see just a little bit further, there's all the gold, you know.
We don't know how close we are to that gold. And we're not gonna get there. It's like any of those epic stories like Lord of the Rings or whatever. You're not gonna get there without being really challenged along the way. Isn't that making it most worth it? If it was easy breezy, would we feel as satisfied? I mean, maybe. I'm not saying I wouldn't, you know, feel fulfilled or satisfied. But isn't there something really delicious when we've worked for the thing that is our success?
Anna Campbell (49:33.432)
Yeah.
Gosh that I think that's important and I think what some of the things you're just talking about around getting curious I know that's something that's really important for you of like that curiosity of like what? I wonder what I should do next, like just giving myself that rather than like I'm so scared. I'm so worried I'm so overwhelmed. It's like huh, okay, let's just turn that around we can. Maybe we have fear. I'm not saying we need to just know all of that, but we can do that and step forward. Can we do our little micro, what was it? Micro deadlines and micro steps and all of that. We can just do the smallest possible thing. But having that curiosity, but also that compassion for ourselves. I think a lot of that messy middle is self judgment. Like that I should be further forwards. I should be good at this. I should be able to do this now.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:11.818)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (50:33.696)
I should, you know, it's all the shoulds that kind of come out.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:36.117)
Oh, it really is, isn't it? I really like what you're saying there about the judgments. I really see that now. It really is, isn't it? There's something I was listening to just this morning, actually, it was a YouTube episode of Kate Northrup, her plenty. I can't remember, I don't think I even looked at the woman as she was talking, as I was doing stuff, but I had that on. And it's a woman that was talking about how she just has decided from somewhere along the line that it just is easy. She's just like, I just don't ever think things. And I think that's a big part of what happens when we get to this bit, because of the judgment, you say, we overthink a lot of the stuff rather than go, you know, I love that. Like, what if this is easy? What if the answer to this is easy? How would that be? We'd be like, what? Easy? Because that could be another belief we've got going on, you know, being successful is not easy.
Anna Campbell (51:18.508)
Yeah, definitely.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (51:34.367)
Growing this is not easy. How many of us are walking around with that? So many of these, we're gonna meet every single one of these beliefs at this point when we get to the next level, you know, really, really expansive and we're thriving and we're at that kind of higher level in our business. We're gonna meet other things around that. But for now, this is what we're meeting. And if we treat that with curiosity and excitement, like, ooh, wow. I'm growing in this, I'm not just running a business. They go hand in hand completely. How exciting, this is meaty.
Anna Campbell (52:10.222)
I love that. I love that. right. Do we have anything else we need to add? I think we've covered everything.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:15.465)
I think we've, I really think we've done good. I'm inspired. I need to listen to this episode.
Anna Campbell (52:21.688)
We've given ourselves, I know, we've given ourselves a good pep talk here, I like it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:27.463)
Yeah, let's end with maybe I'm just thinking of let's end with one piece of advice for someone who's finding themselves in that messy middle place. I'm gonna go first. It's going to feel scary, you're going to feel stretched. You're going to feel like this is not, I can't do this and all of those things that we said.
Do not give up at this point. Stay with what you're doing. I call this staying in the void. Stay in the uncertainty, stay in the void. Muscle. All of this stuff is about you are muscling this extraordinary-ness in you. So seeing everything as building the muscle. I've been finding that really helpful. So go forth, muscle up and stay. You have no idea when you're about to hit gold.
Anna Campbell (53:25.496)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Anna Campbell (53:32.748)
Yep, okay. So my tip would be, my advice would be that what I'm telling myself about as well, is to stop with the overwhelm and to do the next right thing. Because we always know what the next right thing is. And I think sometimes we think we know where we're going and we do need to have some kind of destination, but actually I don't think we always know. It's a bit like, as you said, kind of climbing the mountain, sometimes we'll get to a peak and find there's more, but we didn't see it before, you know, there's always going to be more on the journey. And so if we can just do the next right thing, but also give yourself that permission and to rest, to conserve yourself, conserve your energy because your business is you, you know, if you need to look after yourself, you need to care for yourself. And that is physically, but also around your mental health and how you're feeling about yourself. So do the next right thing. If we can just keep doing that, we're going to get there.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (54:35.156)
I love it.
I absolutely love it and just to say as well enjoy it, enjoy it, don't forget to enjoy it you know.
So on that note we thank you so much as always for giving us your attention and again as always we would love love love to hear from you what has been the thing that you're going to take away most from this episode? What has inspired you? Do you have any thoughts to add? How do you deal with that messy middle bit? And also, is there anything that we haven't covered in the two previous seasons?
So if you've not listened to those yet, you're in for a treat. What would you love us to speak about? We are all ears. Thank you so much and we'll see you next time.